# When were elephants wiped out in Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 19, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067 "2003-12-19T23:17:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kristen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c4cdca/32.png) [@Kristen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kristen)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/1 "2003-12-19T23:17:42Z")
Was it done by Neanderthals or modern man? ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/2 "2003-12-19T23:25:50Z")
Inconceivable! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/3 "2003-12-19T23:27:26Z")
I think there were a few scattered elephants around during even historic times. There were some dwarf elephants on an island, I think. Not too sure what the above post means. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/4 "2003-12-19T23:28:00Z")
As mammoths appear in Cro-Mangon cave paintings, it was certainly after our immediate ancestors appeared on the scene. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/5 "2003-12-20T01:43:19Z")
According to this PDF [http://www.cq.rm.cnr.it/elephants2001/pdf/722\_723.pdf](http://www.cq.rm.cnr.it/elephants2001/pdf/722_723.pdf) mammoths died out after 15,000 years before present, perhaps as late as 12,000 b.p.; straight tusked elephants a little before, perhaps 20.000 b.p. human kind was certainly modern Homo sapiens by that time. Yes. it seems more than a coincidence that modern humans arrived and the megafauna all disappeared; but the exact mechanism isn’t really clear. ---
**Author:** ![Nichol\_storm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Nichol\_storm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nichol_storm)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/6 "2003-12-20T02:02:27Z")
Before the time of Charlemagne, at least. The Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid sent him an Indian elephant named Abu al-Abbas as a gift in 801. Charlemagne adored the animal and was heartbroken when it died a decade later. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/7 "2003-12-20T02:07:39Z")
I saw one in Austria in the 1970s… ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/8 "2003-12-20T02:42:37Z")
eburacum45: Re: b.p. which means before present. Did you perhaps mean bce aka bc? Hannibal’s crossing of the alps with a large contigent of elephants is recounted at \<[http://history.boisestate.edu/westciv/punicwar/07.htm](http://history.boisestate.edu/westciv/punicwar/07.htm)\> OP - Was it done by Neanderthals or modern man? Most likely by natural causes. * * * “Beware of the Cog” ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/9 "2003-12-20T04:03:27Z")
Elephants are not mammoths!!! Elephant bones of fairly recent vintage have been found here and there. A basement of a Roman era house in southern France was found to have elephant bones in it. Some idiots automatically pinned them on Hannibal, but probably not. But it does get very tricky. Were they natives? Imported? Feral or semi-domesticated? Suppose some elephants went feral in Spain for a few generations, some got caught, are these native animals? Etc. European humans probably wiped out lions, cave bears, and wolves in most countries. So elephants wouldn’t have been that hard. ---
**Author:** ![Kristen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c4cdca/32.png) [@Kristen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kristen)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/10 "2003-12-20T07:48:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ftg \* > \*\*Elephants are not mammoths!!! \*\* How true. They are so different I had completely forgotten about mammoths. Also mastodons, which I guess also were around at some point. It’s too bad the Europeans didn’t learn to live with them like in Africa and Asia. dwarf elephants on an island? Sound’s like something from Jules Verne’s Lost World. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Batman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@The\_Batman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Batman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/11 "2003-12-20T08:06:02Z")
I’ve heard of the dwarf elephants too. But they were dwarf mastodons, and went extinct 5000 years ago. I can’t find a site that mentions which island, though. It’s always something. ---
**Author:** ![labmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f19dbf/32.png) [@labmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/labmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/12 "2003-12-20T08:20:06Z")
_dwarf elephants on an island? Sound’s like something from Jules Verne’s Lost World._ No, they did exist. Well, not exactly elephants, but mammoths. On an island called Wrangel in the artic sea north of Siberia. Dwarfism is not uncommon for island populations. Radiocarbon dating estimates the population went extinct only about 4,000 years ago…well into the historical period, odd thought that mammoths coexisted with the first Egyptian kings. Back to the OP, I think its commonly held(too lazy to find a cite, please feel free to call me on it) that elephants in the forms we know them today have only existed in Europe as imports for many thousands of years. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/13 "2003-12-20T08:20:08Z")
[According to this page](http://www.bbc.co.uk/beasts/changing/miocene/mammals.shtml) mastodons and gomphotheres are both members of the Elephant family that have resided in Europe. As for elephant species currently in existance, [the Indian elephant](http://www.ecotravel.co.za/Guides/Wildlife/Vertebrates/Mammals/Big_5/Elephant/Elephant_Information.htm) may have once spread into West Asia/North Africa. “One of the more commonly known mammoths, the woolly mammoth, survived until the end of the Ice Age, about 10 000 years ago, and was known to primitive man, as evidenced by the many drawings on caves and walls in Europe.” [link](http://www.ecotravel.co.za/Guides/Wildlife/Vertebrates/Mammals/Big_5/Elephant/Elephant_Evolution.htm) Judging from my links, I can’t find any evidence that either African elephants or forest elephants have lived naturally in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/14 "2003-12-20T09:20:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ftg \* > Elephants are not mammoths!!! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kristen \* > How true. > They are so different I had completely forgotten about mammoths. Mammoths most certainly ARE ( were ) elephants. Like the extant Asian elephant ( Elephas maximus ) and African elephants ( genus Loxodonta ), the extinct mammoths ( genus Mammuthus ) were in the family Elephantidae. I’m not sure how else you could define the word “elephant”. In fact some workers have placed the mammoths in the genus Elephas with the modern Asian elephant ( however I’ve seen a recent paper that throws some doubt on that close of a relationship, suggesting the possibility of closer kinship to Loxodonta ). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/15 "2003-12-20T11:34:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by labmonkey \* > _ **dwarf elephants on an island? Sound’s like something from Jules Verne’s Lost World.** _ > > No, they did exist. Well, not exactly elephants, but mammoths. On an island called Wrangel in the artic sea north of Siberia. See also the [Pygmy Mammoth](http://www.sbnature.org/exhibits/geopaleo/) (very little mammoth) of Southern California! . ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/16 "2003-12-20T16:35:10Z")
_Originally posted by Springears_\*\* eburacum45: Re: b.p. which means before present. Did you perhaps mean bce aka bc?\*\* No, in the PDF I linked to it says that Mammuthus primigenius died out around 12,000 BP, which would be 10,000 b.c.e; also I believe that dwarf elephants were found on Malta, but when they died out I haven’t detemined yet. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/17 "2003-12-20T16:50:37Z")
[http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_elephants\_in\_Europe](http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_elephants_in_Europe) “The history of elephants in Europe dates back to the ice ages, when mammoths (various species of prehistoric elephant) roamed the northern parts of the Earth, from Europe to North America. However, these became extinct several thousand years ago, and subsequently the presence of elephants in Europe is only due to importation of these animals.” Looks like “modern” elephants were never indigenous to Europe. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/18 "2003-12-20T16:55:59Z")
I read that a Mediterrean island (Malta?) had both dwarf elephants and giant dormice. Cool! ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/19 "2003-12-20T17:18:36Z")
When and how the wooly mammoths in Europe died? The ice age caused huge migrations and starvations with the last survivors hunted down by man. [http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene\_extinction\_event](http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction_event) "Megafaunal extinctions include In Europe: (ca 15,000 years Before Present) Woolly Mammoth Woolly Rhinoceros Irish Elk " ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067/20 "2003-12-20T18:11:41Z")
Distinguish between Elephants and Proboscideans. Any large pachyderm characterized by few, complex molar teeth, tusks, and trunk is a member of Order Proboscidea. There were literally dozens of different Proboscideans throughout Cenozoic time. Deinotheres, gomphotheres, and mastodons were Proboscideans but not Elephants. Elephants has two meanings: (1) member of family Elephantidae, one group of Proboscideans, including modern elephants and mammoths; and (2) members of genera Elephas and Loxodonta specifically excluding the mammoths. (But as **Tamerlane** points out, many mammoths were in those two genera – so meaning #2 becomes an “I mean modern elephants, not mammoths” term of convenience with no actual scientific meaning.) However: Mammoths died out in North America about 10,000 BC and in Eurasia about 8000 BC, surviving in a relict group on Wrangell Island until 4360 BC. Elephants were common in classic historic times in parts of North Africa, and may have been present in southern Europe, where they were certainly known. Dwarf elephants were indeed present on Malta, Crete, and Cyprus, but their dates are usually given as “subfossil” or “Pleistocene.” It’s unlikely any survived until historical times. Mastodons survived until about 8000 BC in both North America and Eurasia. Related mastodontids and gomphotheres survived as relict populations beyond this in certain niches, the record AFAIK being _Cuvieronis_, a mastodon from South America radiocarbon-dated to about 300 AD. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-were-elephants-wiped-out-in-europe/220067.md?page=2)