# When will blacks let the past go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2001, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954 "2001-06-24T07:09:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![archmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@archmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/archmichael)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2001, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/181 "2001-07-05T23:25:05Z")
**December** : I don’t see that I necessarily disagree with any of the solutions you suggested. For me this whole discussion has taken on an air of surrealism to it. Let me try to bring it back into focus. You and others have taken **Ben** , **MrO** , and myself (and others who have spoken out vocally against racist stereotypes) to task for being too focused on racism and not addressing the real solutions. You even accused us of being racial McCarthyists. Think about that for a second. The first point. We are not focused on race. I do not go about life preoccupied about race. I think I can speak for **Ben** and **MrO** , and guess that they don’t either. All we have done is spoken out against racial stereotypes in a debate about race. However, you have taken us to task for being too focused on race. These accusations of being preoccupied or too focused always seem to come up in debates about race. If we were debating any other topic (capital punishment, abortion, etc) people who speak out vocally are never accused of being preoccupied with capital punishment, abortion, or whatever. I don’t know how we can win in this situation. The one who speak out against ignorant stereotypes are the ones who are accused of being counter-productive. The second point. You take us to task for not addressing the real solutions. I don’t know of any debate that takes place here on the SDMB that addresses the real solutions. Once again if this was any other debate, I don’t think you would be saying this. I have never heard someone tell a pro-Death Penalty person, that his focus is counter-productive, and that he should be focusing on working to prove the innocence of death row inmates. It seems to me that you are saying that we are debating too vehemently, and debating when we can be working on real solutions. Maybe we can do both. Maybe we are fighting racism and doing the best we can to help blacks get a better education Please clarify what you are advocating we do. Do we not speak up when we hear stereotypes and prejudice? Aren’t all debate that take place here rather counter-productive and not addressing the real solutions? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2001, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/182 "2001-07-05T23:51:18Z")
\*Originally posted by archmichael \* \*\*Let me try to bring it back into focus. You and others have taken _Ben_, _MrO_, and myself (and others who have spoken out vocally against racist stereotypes) to task for being too focused on racism and not addressing the real solutions. You even accused us of being racial McCarthyists. Think about that for a second. The first point. We are not focused on race. I do not go about life preoccupied about race. I think I can speak for _Ben_ and _MrO_, and guess that they don’t either…However, you have taken us to task for being too focused on race. \*\* Perhaps it’s a quibble, but I accused the three of you of focusing too much on _racism_, rather than _race._ \*\*The second point. You take us to task for not addressing the real solutions. I don’t know of any debate that takes place here on the SDMB that addresses the real solutions… Maybe we are fighting racism and doing the best we can to help blacks get a better education. \*\* I started a thread last month on “How to fix inner city education.” None of the three of you posted. to it. However, you have numerous posts accusing **BBB** of racism. That’s why it looks like you’re more interested in fighting racism than in improving education. \*\*Please clarify what you are advocating we do. \*\* Get involved in activities that will promote education for inner city Blacks. \*\*Aren’t all debate that take place here rather counter-productive and not addressing the real solutions? \*\* I’m not sure what you mean by this comment. ---
**Author:** ![archmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@archmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/archmichael)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/183 "2001-07-06T00:50:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Perhaps it’s a quibble, but I accused the three of you of focusing too much on racism, rather than race. Yes, it is a quibble. > [@](#): > > I started a thread last month on “How to fix inner city education.” None of the three of you posted. to it. However, you have numerous posts accusing BBB of racism. That’s why it looks like you’re more interested in fighting racism than in improving education. Now you know this is not a fair statement. There are many reasons why people don’t participate in ANY particular debate. I remember seeing your post about inner city education. I did not participate, because I did not feel I knew all the pros and cons of the topic. I have heard all the rhetoric, but nothing for me to be informed on the topic. However, I don’t know how my non-participation in a debate reflects on anything. There are currently about four other active topics about race/racism. I have not participated in them. What does that prove? Maybe nothing. I didn’t realize that if I was for something, I had to be involved in every debate that comes up about it. > [@](#): > > **Aren’t all debate that take place here rather counter-productive and not addressing the real solutions?** > > I’m not sure what you mean by this comment I am simply pointing out that your statements seem to be against any debate. In all these debates, very little gets resolved, and almost never leds to any action. You seem to be advocating a notion of “less talk, more action”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/184 "2001-07-06T01:09:56Z")
**december** replied to **am:** \*“The second point. You take us to task for not addressing the real solutions. I don’t know of any debate that takes place here on the SDMB that addresses the real solutions… Maybe we are fighting racism and doing the best we can to help blacks get a better education.” I started a thread last month on “How to fix inner city education.” None of the three of you posted. to it. However, you have numerous posts accusing BBB of racism. That’s why it looks like you’re more interested in fighting racism than in improving education. \* Er, **december** , no disrespect intended to your thread, but I think that **archmichael** ’s point was that squabbling on a message board doesn’t actually count as “addressing the real solutions.” \*“Please clarify what you are advocating we do.” Get involved in activities that will promote education for inner city Blacks. \* Can’t he do that and **also** object to what he thinks are racist assumptions in a message-board thread? After all, when we on GD had our big tussle here this past Easter about whether the Good Friday “B.C.” cartoon was anti-Semitic, you weren’t complaining that Jews focus too much on anti-Semitism and they should be getting involved in activities that would promote their better social integration into American society instead. \*“Aren’t all debate that take place here rather counter-productive and not addressing the real solutions?” I’m not sure what you mean by this comment.\* Spoken like a true Teeming Millionth! 🙂 I think he means, painful though it is for us devotees of Cecil to admit it, that in practical terms it’s not a very constructive thing to do. I have to agree with **archmichael** on this one to some extent. I’ve noticed too that when blacks (or others) complain about anti-black racism, many people seem to assume that they’re using the racism as an excuse to avoid addressing other problems in black society or to avoid working to overcome their disadvantages in spite of racism. I’m at a loss to know where that assumption comes from. Personally, I’ve never met a black person who felt that the black community had no problems except for white racism (whether the black community has any problems that aren’t ultimately partly caused or exacerbated by white racism, of course, is another question), or who didn’t feel the importance of struggling to overcome them. Where **does** that assumption come from? Why do you feel that **am** is “too focused on racism”? Do you think I’m too focused on freedom of religion, or tax policy? Aren’t we here precisely in order to focus, sometimes fiercely, on thorny social issues? Why should racism in particular be something that we need to be shooed away from? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/185 "2001-07-06T01:40:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > \*\* Why do you feel that _am_ is “too focused on racism”? Do you think I’m too focused on freedom of religion, or tax policy? Aren’t we here precisely in order to focus, sometimes fiercely, on thorny social issues? Why should racism in particular be something that we need to be shooed away from? \*\* As I said earlier, I don’t think a focus on racism is particularly productive at this moment, although I agree that it was productive 50 years ago. In the past, a focus on racism has been useful: [li]It led to legal changes to eradicate many horrendous practices It led to various special privileges coming under “affirmative action.”[/li] The trouble with receiving privileges is that it’s self-limiting. In order to claim the benefits of affirmative action, a group must remain victims. That’s why Asians and Jews, e.g., get no special preference for college admission, despite past discrimination. In the long run, doing well is unlimited; remaining a victim requires continuing failure. Unfortunately, people who have special privileges will tend to want to keep them. It seemed to me that the OP asking when Blacks will will “let the past go” was effectively asking when they will give up their victim status. There’s a bitter dichotomy today among Black leaders. E.g., Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas passionately believe that the best route to progress is to dump the victim status. The majority of Blacks appear to totally disagree. The two people I mentioned are often vilified as “Uncle Toms,” and not just because they have “Thomas” in their names. Put another way, the Thomas Sowell school believes that progress mostly requires changes in Blacks’ behavior; their many opponents believe that the most important thing is changes in White behavior. Given this spllit, it seems to me that one will tend to be on one side or the other. For that reason, it seems to me problematic to focus on both racism and behavior. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/186 "2001-07-06T01:40:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > \*\* Why do you feel that _am_ is “too focused on racism”? Do you think I’m too focused on freedom of religion, or tax policy? Aren’t we here precisely in order to focus, sometimes fiercely, on thorny social issues? Why should racism in particular be something that we need to be shooed away from? \*\* As I said earlier, I don’t think a focus on racism is particularly productive at this moment, although I agree that it was productive 50 years ago. In the past, a focus on racism has been useful: [li]It led to legal changes to eradicate many horrendous practices It led to various special privileges coming under “affirmative action.”[/li] The trouble with receiving privileges is that it’s self-limiting. In order to claim the benefits of affirmative action, a group must remain victims. That’s why Asians and Jews, e.g., get no special preference for college admission, despite past discrimination. In the long run, doing well is unlimited; remaining a victim requires continuing failure. Unfortunately, people who have special privileges will tend to want to keep them. It seemed to me that the OP asking when Blacks will will “let the past go” was effectively asking when they will give up their victim status. There’s a bitter dichotomy today among Black leaders. E.g., Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas passionately believe that the best route to progress is to dump the victim status. The majority of Blacks appear to totally disagree. The two people I mentioned are often vilified as “Uncle Toms,” and not just because they have “Thomas” in their names. Put another way, the Thomas Sowell school believes that progress mostly requires changes in Blacks’ behavior; their many opponents believe that the most important thing is changes in White behavior. Given this split, it seems to me that one will tend to be on one side or the other. For that reason, it seems to me problematic to focus on both racism and behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/187 "2001-07-06T01:41:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*I started a thread last month on “How to fix inner city education.” None of the three of you posted. to it. However, you have numerous posts accusing **BBB** of racism. That’s why it looks like you’re more interested in fighting racism than in improving education. \*\* Kimstu has already skewered this argument better than I ever could. All I want to know is, where are my “numerous posts accusing BBB of racism”? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/188 "2001-07-06T01:57:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Well the meaning of those words then and the meaning of them now aren’t very similar, are they? I highly doubt anyone calling someone a redneck has any intent to be racist towards blacks. First, you have now quoted me out of context twice. I have not been participating in the “who is racist?” debate as I do not find such discussions useful. My initial statement (in which _rednecks_ and _white trash_ were deliberately set off in quotation marks to indicate that they were imposed, not naturally occurring, epithets) discussed _classes_ in society as one of several historical examples of disadvantaged groups in conflict, each fearing they would hold the lowest rung on the ladder of class in society. However, while I would probably not link redneck to any specific attititude toward blacks, today, the phrase “white trash” was very definitely a racist term in my memory (although that connotation tends to be fading somewhat in the last twenty years). It specifically refers to those poor whites who are such “trash” that their only redeeming feature is that at least they are not black. (In fact, the phrase is amply cited among blacks who saw themselves as better than the _other_ disparaged group in the South.) Again, that meaning has tended to be lost in the last few years, but I assure you that it was very much the meaning of the phrase in the not too distant past. Remember that the two phrases tend to be “poor white” or “white trash” (or joined as “poor white trash”). What is the common word? White. Why does it appear in all three phrases? To distinguish the people so described from blacks. What is the purpose of distinguishing between poor whites and poor blacks? To ensure that the groups are identified and kept separate. There are, indeed, people in the North who refer to “white trash.” Of course, it must be noted that large numbers of people from the the South or its border states have migrated to the North throughout the 20th century and many of their words have come with them. (I am _not_ claiming that racism is a Southern trait. The North has always been as racist as the South–although the Northern racism was not enshrined in law. We are discussing social perceptions as identified and reinforced through language. The phrases originated in the very _class_-conscious society of the South, which was the point of my initial statement.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/189 "2001-07-06T02:10:10Z")
**december:** _Given this split, it seems to me that one will tend to be on one side or the other. For that reason, it seems to me problematic to focus on both racism and behavior._ Whoa! That’s kind of a startling conclusion. After all, there are severe splits in other social movements and communities too, but I don’t recall hearing that it’s “problematic” to try to keep on addressing both sides of them. Many feminists strongly disagree over whether it’s more important these days to focus on fighting persistent sexism or promoting women’s achievement. Is there a reason it’s “problematic” for us to try to do both? Environmentalists are split over whether we should foreground immigration and population control, or keep centered on traditional pollution and conservation issues. Why shouldn’t we do both? People in my own academic field disagree over the relative importance of popularizing more of our work for a general audience or getting more research out for a small audience of specialists. Is there something wrong with my trying to do both (other than that I spend too much time on the goddamned SDMB as well, that is)? I see your point about not wanting to get so over-focused on racism that we lose sight of other issues concerning blacks in American society. But by the same token, we shouldn’t concentrate so exclusively on those other issues that we no longer see the problems of racism. I still really do not see at all why you would think it’s “problematic” to continue being concerned about both. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/190 "2001-07-06T02:23:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\* All I want to know is, where are my “numerous posts accusing BBB of racism”? > -Ben \*\* I meant to say **Ben, Mike,** & **MrO** together had made numerous such posts. **Ben** , Here’s a list of yours. > [@](#): > > Perhaps when rednecks quit putting the Confederate flag on their cars, T-shirts, and state flags? This seems to imply that “rednecks” are racists. I don’t know whether **BBB** would fall under your definition of a “redneck.” > [@](#): > > It’s [the Confederate flag] as if someone put a Nazi flag on his car because he felt like Jewish shopkeepers were cheating him- but hey, he’s not antisemitic, he just doesn’t like Jews and uses the Nazi flag to express that fact. Here you’re calling all those who care about the Confederate flag racists, and doing so in the most extreme way, via Godwin’s Law. I don’t know whether **BBB** cares about that flag, but if he does… > [@](#): > > Have you read Black Boy, by Richard Wright? For that matter, do you know the history of Marcus Garvey’s Black Star Line? These two questions seemn to imply that **BBB** may be merely ignorant. > [@](#): > > What do you consider to be “success”? How low can the glass ceiling get before it becomes a problem? I don’t think this comment calls **BBB** a racist, although it implies that he’s oblivious to evident discrimination. > [@](#): > > Is that to say that you do, in fact, think that Blacks are dumber than Whites? Putting these words into **BBB"s** mouth is calling him a racist. (And they represent a change from what he actually wrote.) > [@](#): > > As a final note about “racial McCarthyism,” let me say that I didn’t infer that Bababooey was making a racist statement simply because he said Blacks don’t do as well as Whites in school. I inferred that he might be making a racist statement because of the context of his statement: Inferring that **BBB** was “making a racist statement” seems tantamount to calling him a racist. > [@](#): > > …Bababooey: You’ve indicated both here and in the “Are Liberals smarter?” thread that you believe that the only reason for unemployment is laziness. This allegaton effectively calls **BBB** a racist; especially since it’s an exaggeration of what he actually said. **Ben** , I’m surprised at your question to me (and surprised that I tood the trouble to answer it.) For all I know, all your accusations againsg **BBB** b may be entirely valid, but it’s surprising that you would question whether you made them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/191 "2001-07-06T02:46:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas passionately believe that the best route to progress is to dump the victim status. The majority of Blacks appear to totally disagree. I doubt that any of us, here, actually know how “the majority” of blacks see those viewpoints. I have many black business acquaintances, and they are all over the board on their opinions, with neither income nor education being a good predictor of what opinions they hold. The debates of DuBois and Washington still rage within the black community (with more viewpoints added as society changes). The black community is no more a monolithic block of thought drones than is the white community. I would say that the viewpoints of the NAACP certainly are in striking contrast to those of Sowell. But if you have paid attention, you will notice that there have been many intramural debates and disagreements withing the NAACP in the last 15 or 20 years. (I do find a great irony that the foremost example of blacks benefitting from Affirmative Action is Clarence Thomas who opposes it for others–he is certainly my best argument against AA.) ---
**Author:** ![archmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@archmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/archmichael)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/192 "2001-07-06T02:46:52Z")
**Kimstu** : Thank you. Everytime I think I was pretty articulate, someone else puts me to shame. **December** : I have never advocated special privileges for blacks. I want an even playing field for everyone. I don’t know how to insure this happens without open and frank discussions about racism. The playing field certainly isn’t going to level itself. I think the difference in views between blacks and whites about how level the field is, gives reason enough for there to be a focus on racism. I don’t see doing this would be counter-productive. I also find your argument about the schizm within the black leadership to be very disturbing. Seem to me a version of “people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones”. Black people like any other group of people, will always have their problems and lack general consensus. Why should these internal issues prevent them from addressing external issues? In you opinion, they should only tackle racism once there are no internal black problems and consensus about how to get there from here? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/193 "2001-07-06T02:58:49Z")
I’m just going to focus on a couple of key points here: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BabaBooey \* > \*\*“If Mississippi decided to put a swastika on its flag tomorrow, would you be arguing that Jews shouldn’t find that offensive?” > > How many times do I have to say that I feel that there are many differences between the Nazi flag and the Confederate flag? \*\* You’ve just proven my point. Earlier you stated that Blacks shouldn’t feel threatened by the Confederate flag, because while the Confederacy was founded on slavery, and while the flag is still used as a symbol by racists, they should remember that it has accreted other meanings in addition to racism and slavery. But what if the Confederate flag hadn’t originally stood for slavery, and racists had only recently adopted it as a symbol? It seems to me that by your logic, the Confederate flag should be considered even more innocuous. However, when I ask you how you would respond if Mississippi put a swastika on its flag, _you automatically assume that I’m talking about the Nazi flag._ You even get a little grumpy about it! And yet the swastika has been used for thousands of years across many different cultures. Archaeologists have found Jewish altars decorated with swastikas. Even into the 1950’s, the flag of Iceland contained a swastika. So if Blacks should be telling themselves that the Confederate flag is no longer purely a symbol of slavery and oppression, shouldn’t you have recognized that, in the grand scheme of things, Nazis are only a tiny proportion of the people who used the swastika as a symbol? Or would you agree that sometimes a single meaning can come to dominate a symbol in the minds of reasonable people? > [@](#): > > \*\* > I feel that if you respect what a good education can do for you, you would do your best to get one. I should have been clearer on that… \*\* Are you aware of the fact that surveys in the 1970’s showed that Blacks value education significantly more than Whites do? > [@](#): > > \*\* > “I’m unable to find anyone who stated that it was “impossible” for Blacks to succeed in the '50s; as I pointed out before, you’re just using a straw man argument, and have been since the beginning.” > > Well you seemed to disagree with your reference to the Garvey/Wright books. I made up that dumbass Mickey Mantle situation to show you how I interpreted the reference… \*\* Let’s go over this again, since you seem to be having trouble: You argued that racism can’t be the reason why so many Blacks are having a hard time, since your Grandfather was able to succeed. Archmichael pointed out that your Grandfather didn’t have to struggle against racism. You then switched from your ‘racism doesn’t make any difference’ argument to a straw man argument: you started claiming that it wasn’t “impossible” for Blacks to succeed, and falsely stated that the only reason why you were making that argument is because someone had declared that it was impossible for them to succeed. That’s simply dishonest. Of course, I already explained all of this before, but somehow you managed to snip it all without providing any substantial defense of your actions. > [@](#): > > \*\* > What’s the point. If you didn’t bring up the Garvey/Wright books to give me the impression that it WAS impossible for blacks to succeed in the 50’s, then I don’t know the reason of its existance. \*\* If I might quote myself: “The reason I brought up Garvey is because your position seems hopelessly naive… The problem is that you seem to say, “As long as one person can get up the hill, there’s no reason for Blacks to complain that their hill is higher than the White hill.” Not only is that a problematic view because of the logic (there was a kid who escaped the Tulsa Race Riots- does that mean the Riots were no big deal? For that matter, do you even know what the Tulsa Riots were?) but your view of the facts is wrong. It’s not that the Black hill was a little higher, so 90% of the climbers got tired. **It’s that 50% of the climbers got tired, and 80% of the remainder were shot off the top by White snipers.** For that matter, you don’t seem to understand how high the hill really was, even without the fact that Whites frequently sabotaged Black successes in the end.” (emphasis added.) Where, exactly, do I say that 100% of the people failed to get to the top of the hill? Like I said, I was trying to correct your naive view of the historical situation, without disputing that it was possible for Blacks to succeed. By the way, why did all those Black people die in the Tulsa riot? It couldn’t have been racism, right? After all, some managed to escape. (Again, do you even know what the Tulsa race riots were?) > [@](#): > > \*\* > I wasn’t aware that affirmative action exists for rich people. \*\* There is in Ivy League schools. Preferential treatment in admissions is given to applicants who are the children of alumni. > [@](#): > > \*\* > “You’ve indicated both here and in the “Are Liberals smarter?” thread that you believe that the only reason for unemployment is laziness. If that’s the case, then what do you make of the effect of the prime rate on unemployment?” > > I don’t understand “the prime rate on unemployment.” \*\* My mistake- I phrased that poorly. It should read, “What do you make of the effect which the prime rate has upon unemployment?” -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/194 "2001-07-06T03:56:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Perhaps when rednecks quit putting the Confederate flag on their cars, T-shirts, and state flags? > > This seems to imply that “rednecks” are racists. I don’t know whether **BBB** would fall under your definition of a “redneck.” \*\* Don’t quote me out of context, december. The statement you quoted was made before Bababooey had even joined the thread. You also left out my later clarification: “Funny, I wasn’t aware that everyone in Mississippi supported putting the Confederate flag on the state flag. For that matter, I wasn’t aware that all of those who supported it were rednecks.” You’re off to a good start, december. I use the term “redneck” to refer to some racists, and you declare that in doing so I’m calling BBB a racist, because it’s possible he could be a redneck, even though he wasn’t around at the time the comment was made. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > It’s [the Confederate flag] as if someone put a Nazi flag on his car because he felt like Jewish shopkeepers were cheating him- but hey, he’s not antisemitic, he just doesn’t like Jews and uses the Nazi flag to express that fact. > > Here you’re calling all those who care about the Confederate flag racists, and doing so in the most extreme way, via Godwin’s Law. I don’t know whether **BBB** cares about that flag, but if he does… \*\* Don’t quote me out of context, december. I was asking BBB to clarify a statement he had made specifically about _Whites who deliberately used the Confederate flag in order to antagonize Blacks._ It appeared to me that he was saying that such people are not racist, because they “just don’t like Blacks.” My statement was, in context, clearly an analogy for BBB’s arguments, rather than any statement of my own beliefs. Besides, as you admit, it wasn’t even directed at BBB. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Have you read Black Boy, by Richard Wright? For that matter, do you know the history of Marcus Garvey’s Black Star Line? > > These two questions seemn to imply that **BBB** may be merely ignorant. \*\* So why are you bringing it up as part of your proof that I called BBB a racist? And why is there anything at all wrong with asking someone whether they’ve read a particular book? December, how lame can you get? Is this the best you can do- quotes from me that are neither accusations, nor have anything to do with racism? > [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > What do you consider to be “success”? How low can the glass ceiling get before it becomes a problem? > > I don’t think this comment calls **BBB** a racist, although it implies that he’s oblivious to evident discrimination. \*\* Well, if it doesn’t call him a racist, then don’t use it as proof that I called him a racist! As for implications that he’s “oblivious to evident discrimination,” I think it’s clear from the context that it was an entirely appropriate question to ask, and an entirely appropriate point to make. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Is that to say that you do, in fact, think that Blacks are dumber than Whites? > > Putting these words into **BBB"s** mouth is calling him a racist. (And they represent a change from what he actually wrote.) \*\* Ah, I see- if I ask him to verify that I’ve read him correctly, then I’m accusing him of being racist. Very interesting, december. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > As a final note about “racial McCarthyism,” let me say that I didn’t infer that Bababooey was making a racist statement simply because he said Blacks don’t do as well as Whites in school. I inferred that he might be making a racist statement because of the context of his statement: > > Inferring that **BBB** was “making a racist statement” seems tantamount to calling him a racist. \*\* Let’s look at the part I snipped: “In effect, BBB certainly _appears_ to be saying that the reason Blacks don’t have high-paying jobs isn’t because of any extrinsic factos (broadly speaking, racism); it’s because of some sort of intrinsic factor (inferior genetics, inferior culture, etc.) **But I want to make sure, so I asked BBB if I’ve interpreted him correctly.** ” (emphasis added, italics in the original.) So, **taken in context,** we see that I thought he might be making a racist comment, but I wanted to ask for clarification before I said anything. Even now, I haven’t accused him of racism, because I’m still trying to learn more about his opinions. Anyway, I don’t think accusing him of racism- in the event that he turned out to be unequivocally racist on this point- would do anything to further that conversation. The only reason I mentioned my private thoughts on the matter at all was in order to defend myself against your ridiculous accusations. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > …Bababooey: You’ve indicated both here and in the “Are Liberals smarter?” thread that you believe that the only reason for unemployment is laziness. > > This allegaton effectively calls **BBB** a racist; especially since it’s an exaggeration of what he actually said. \*\* Exaggeration, eh? Let’s look at what he actually wrote: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=75484&pagenumber=2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=75484&pagenumber=2) > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Bababooey_\*\* > Are liberals smarter average? Well as long as their policies include supporting those who are too lazy to work with taxpayers money, along with saying it’s OK to kill a fetus but not OK to kill a murderer, I’d say no. > \*\* Bear in mind, too, that when I asked Bababooey what he made of the effects of the prime rate upon unemployment, he didn’t say that the question was irrelevant on the grounds that I had exaggerated his true position. Moreover, his statements about unemployment in the other thread have nothing to do with race at all. If I accurately report what BBB said on a topic which doesn’t necessarily involve race, that’s “racial McCarthyism”? > [@](#): > > \*\* > **Ben** , I’m surprised at your question to me (and surprised that I tood the trouble to answer it.) For all I know, all your accusations againsg **BBB** b may be entirely valid, but it’s surprising that you would question whether you made them.\*\* :rolleyes: -Ben ---
**Author:** ![archmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@archmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/archmichael)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/195 "2001-07-06T04:57:54Z")
**December** : I am curious to know why in regard to BBB you have been so lenient, and very cautious in misinterpreting him; however, in regards to **Ben** you have been so quick to judge. Looking back over all the quotes, **Ben** is right. He had many opportunities to call BBB a racist, and never has. ---
**Author:** ![jamesblan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@jamesblan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jamesblan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/196 "2001-07-06T06:56:58Z")
ooooooh! Them poor blacks who dominate American pop culture and represent themselves so well in that light. Why there is even a question about blacks is ridiculous. Hell, there should not even be a black society in America. there should be no sub-society if the idea of racism is to be ended. Fuck your identitiy! I have no identity as a Japanese-Irish-Scottish-German-French-Polish-American. Have any of those “races” been discriminated against? Hell yes. Slavery ended 136 years agao. The Native Americans were virually wiped from the Earth less than that ago (last white mass slaughter, 1896 Nez Pierce (unless I am wrong)). Blacks have it lucky compared to the Native Americans and fuck you if you think any different. Blacks suffer no longer. Only their own sense of limited self-esteem is the cause of failure, not racism. Ask Charles Barkely and Colin Powell. ---
**Author:** ![MrO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@MrO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrO)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/197 "2001-07-06T12:33:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jamesblan \* > **Fuck your identitiy! . . . Blacks have it lucky compared to the Native Americans and fuck you if you think any different.** It’s only because my wife is out tonight and I have nothing special to do that I am bothering to reply to this steaming load of “logic.” It certainly says something about the humanity and compassion of some of those who maintain that black people should let go of the past. The hostility and rudeness negate whatever value the opinion might have had, it seems to me. Of course if the original question can be answered, then it has been–by the black contributors to the thread. I particularly like the way **eprince** said it, but several others have said powerful things as well. All the rest of us have the right to our opinions, I suppose, but they are the only ones who have any claim to authority on the issue. Any white person who says that black people _should_ let go of the past, or that they or anyone else _should_ do anything, has a wildly exaggerated sense of the importance of his or her judgements. No one has the right to say what black people _should_ do; they will do what they choose to do. And if you are so certain that “only their own sense of limited self-esteem is the cause of failure,” then you might ask yourself where this self-esteem problem comes from. I suppose you’ll reply that it isn’t your problem where it comes from. But it is, if you plan to share this planet with black people. I don’t deny the atrocity of what happened to the Native Americans. Their history was very different from African-American history. It surprises me a little that someone with the intelligence and compassion to understand that could think so little of the atrocities that are relevant to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/198 "2001-07-06T13:59:48Z")
**jamesblan** > [@](#): > > Blacks have it lucky compared to the Native Americans and fuck you if you think any different. [Moderator Hat ON] There is no need to tell your fellow posters “fuck you” simply because they disagree with you. Don’t do this again. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/199 "2001-07-06T14:12:38Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by december \* **As I said earlier, I don’t think a focus on racism is particularly productive at this moment, although I agree that it was productive 50 years ago.** [quote] Do you really think everythings A O.K. now? Even though there are still many, many people who have such stereotypical views of blacks? As **Lemur** said, about 90% of white people think like BBB. It is the very same attitude that persuaded the powers-that-be that Afirmative Action was neccessary. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \*\*\* > In the long run, doing well is unlimited; remaining a victim requires continuing failure. Unfortunately, people who have special privileges will tend to want to keep them. It seemed to me that the OP asking when Blacks will will “let the past go” was effectively asking when they will give up their victim status. \*\* I think here is a very good example of what is bad about AA. It doesn’t matter how well blacks do. As long as there is a thing called Afirmative Action every black person with a good job or a college degree will _still_ be thought as inferior. **december** , you have already been asked how you have come to the rather arbitrary conclusion that AA is responsible for blacks who do not complete college. There are studies that show why college completion rates are so low across racial lines. AA has absolutely nothing to do with it. I don’t think black people revel in their “victim status”, I think it has been largely thrust upon us. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \*\*\* > There’s a bitter dichotomy today among Black leaders. E.g., Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas passionately believe that the best route to progress is to dump the victim status. The majority of Blacks appear to totally disagree. The two people I mentioned are often vilified as “Uncle Toms,” and not just because they have “Thomas” in their names. Put another way, the Thomas Sowell school believes that progress mostly requires changes in Blacks’ behavior; their many opponents believe that the most important thing is changes in White behavior. > > Given this split, it seems to me that one will tend to be on one side or the other. For that reason, it seems to me problematic to focus on both racism and behavior. \*\* There is no dichotomy here. None at all. Blacks are treated unfairly in [every](http://www.aclu.org/community/newjers/njdwbreport.html)[single](http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/may2000/bias-m16.shtml) step of the[judiciary system.](http://www.sentencingproject.org/news/opinion.pdf) These same kind of disparities can be found in housing, banking and education. People like you (yes, I mean you december) like to take statistics and show that it is not the system, but the blacks who are at fault for blacks higher crime rate, default rate and school failure rates when the fact is the discrepancy between black and white anything rates can be shown to be _directly_ linked to continued prejudice against blacks. So, with this very real disadvantage there is every reason for blacks to _not_ commit crimes, _never_ default on loans and _always_ get the best education they can. As I tell all of my black friends: It has been so for over 300 years in the U.S. You must do 10 times better than whites to look half as good. Stop looking for better treatment. Stop waiting for “the man” to all of a sudden realize how unfair it all is. It ain’t gonna happen. Be especially hard on our brothers and sisters who drop out, commit crimes and default on loans. Every bad thing a black person does is magnified one hundred fold onto every other black person. No, there is no dichotomy here. ---
**Author:** ![MrO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@MrO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrO)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954/200 "2001-07-06T14:13:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*I started a thread last month on “How to fix inner city education.” None of the three of you posted. to it. However, you have numerous posts accusing **BBB** of racism. That’s why it looks like you’re more interested in fighting racism than in improving education. > \*\* Oh yeah, about this. Please notice that I only registered here last month. Sorry if you feel slighted. As for what I’m doing to improve education, I have been a teacher for 14 years now, and I don’t just teach grammar. Critical thinking skills have always been a part of what I teach, and that includes looking closely at race, racism, and other uncomfortable social issues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-blacks-let-the-past-go/69954.md?page=11)