# When will Cliven Bundy (et. al.) be arrested by the federal government? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 12, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521 "2015-04-12T22:51:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/41 "2015-04-14T21:52:39Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Delicious irony would be if armed cattle rustlers stole his cattle, and local authorities wouldn’t help him out because it was Federal land. Who rides with me? ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/42 "2015-04-14T23:53:15Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I chose to read it more as “given a choice, based on previous, somewhat-similar events, between possibly-guilty people being killed and possibly-guilty people getting away,” they chose the “not killed” option in hopes of maybe getting their money from the guy some day. Solid reading comprehension Ethilrist. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/43 "2015-04-15T02:42:49Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I chose to read it more as “given a choice, based on previous, somewhat-similar events, between possibly-guilty people being killed and possibly-guilty people getting away,” they chose the “not killed” option in hopes of maybe getting their money from the guy some day. Which does not address the question posed in the OP at all, just like **Waymore** ’s post did not: it only addresses the standoff and not an arrest happening since the standoff ended. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/44 "2015-04-15T06:48:04Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Which does not address the question posed in the OP at all, just like **Waymore** ’s post did not: it only addresses the standoff and not an arrest happening since the standoff ended. Doesn’t saying “I don’t think there will ever be an arrest” answer the question in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/45 "2015-04-15T12:15:42Z")
Similarly, don’t you think killing the guy would make it difficult to arrest him? Leaving him alive leaves the possibility for potential prosecution on the table. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/46 "2015-04-15T15:07:05Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Explain to me what Nevada and Arizona legislators have to do with a Federal court decision concerning Federal lands. Hint: The answer is fuck-all. (post shortened) Clout. Who else can pressure a federal agency to drop an investigation, or not enforce a court order? Normally, a federal agency is granted regulatory power to control some situation or area. In this case it’s the BLM. The BLM changes the rules concerning grazing cattle. That seems to have pissed off a lot of ranchers, voters, legislators, and governors. Bundy makes the case that the federal government is stealing state land. He seems to have his supporters. Several courts rule against Bundy. Federal officers are ordered to deal with the cattle, and Bundy, if it comes to that. However, the end result is that court orders are not carried out. Federal officers do not remove the cattle, or arrest Bundy. There is obviously some outside influence(s) that allows Bundy to ignore court orders, and armed federal officials. Governors, state legislators, and federal legislators carry a lot of clout with government agencies. I have no idea what the term “fuck-all” means. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/47 "2015-04-15T15:15:46Z")
Do you think if the armed militias stood down and went home that Bundy would still have his cattle? ---
**Author:** ![ataraxy22](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ataraxy22/32/307_2.png) [@ataraxy22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ataraxy22)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/48 "2015-04-15T15:26:06Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Maybe it’s time to restart the Homesteading program again to placate Mr. Bundy with all the privately owned neighbours his heart desires. > There are millions of under-privileged poverty-stricken young ethnic people in the big cities of the East. 1000s would like the chance to own their own ranch and ride under the big sky. Probably. Heh. That sounds a lot like the plot of Robert Sheckley’s story, The People Trap! ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/49 "2015-04-15T15:27:13Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Do you think if the armed militias stood down and went home that Bundy would still have his cattle? I think he would. I also think he would have paid the fine the court has already ordered him to pay. He made a big enough show of Sticking It To The Man that they backed off rather than escalate it into a shooting match. I’m still not sure why they haven’t found a way to get their money in the past year, though… ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/50 "2015-04-15T15:41:03Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Do you think if the armed militias stood down and went home that Bundy would still have his cattle? No, I don’t. However, I suspect that some very influential somebodies prevented the armed federal agents from coming back with many, many, more armed federal agents. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/51 "2015-04-15T15:41:11Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I think he would. I also think he would have paid the fine the court has already ordered him to pay. He made a big enough show of Sticking It To The Man that they backed off rather than escalate it into a shooting match. I’m still not sure why they haven’t found a way to get their money in the past year, though… There are more players here than just Bundy and the BLM as noted upthread. IMO, Bundy and his friends having guns is the least important thing about this story. The Feds apparently didn’t consider shooting anybody at the time and aren’t pressing any gun-related charges against anybody right now, anyway. The interesting question is who are the powerful and influential people who are apparently siding with Bundy and aiding him out of the public eye? If the Feds wanted him, his money, or his cattle, they would take them and a few civilians with rifles would not dissuade them. Federal LE has all manner of wonderful toys that they are not the least bit shy about using. They are handling Bundy this way because of his politically powerful backers not because they are afraid of a handful of yokels with rifles. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/52 "2015-04-15T15:43:47Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > According to Wiki, there have been several legal cases concerning Bundy. The advantage has shifted back and forth so the BLM-Bundy issue doesn’t appear to be settled. Bundy has a lot of friends in very high places. > > …\*Nevada governor and state lawmakers > > Governor Brian Sandoval sided with Bundy, saying, “No cow justifies the atmosphere of intimidation which currently exists nor the limitation of constitutional rights that are sacred to all Nevadans. The BLM needs to reconsider its approach to this matter and act accordingly.” > > Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore, who supported Bundy, aiding him with his returned calves, said, “It’s time for Nevada to stand up to the federal government and demand the return of the BLM lands to the people of Nevada.” > > …Arizona state lawmakers > > On April 15, 2014, a group of Republican state legislators from Arizona, including Representatives Bob Thorpe (R-Flagstaff), David Livingston (R-Peoria), Kelly Townsend (R-Mesa), Senators Judy Burges (R-Sun City West), and Kelli Ward (R-Lake Havasu City) traveled to Mesquite, Nevada, to support Bundy in his standoff with the BLM. > > Arizona Representative Kelly Townsend said that the scenes at the ranch amid the dispute gave her a “visceral reaction… It sounds dramatic, but it reminded me of Tiananmen Square. I don’t recognize my country at this point.” Her colleague, Bob Thorpe of Flagstaff, said that he was one of about three dozen state legislators who had sent a letter about the standoff to Nevada and federal officials. \* > > [Bundy standoff - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff) > > I’m thinking Bundy’s legislative friends out-weigh all of the armed federal officers, armed civilians, and the courts. IOW, you’ve got nothin’. Rather wordy way of saying it, though. But thanks for the list of traitors, because that’s what they are. They are people who are defending the notion that a piece of Nevada is outside Federal jurisdiction. We fought a frickin’ _war_ about that, 150 years ago. Time to send in the troops again, I guess. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/53 "2015-04-15T15:44:17Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > If the Feds wanted him, his money, or his cattle, they would take them and a few civilians with rifles would not dissuade them. Federal LE has all manner of wonderful toys that they are not the least bit shy about using. The Feds _did_ take his cattle. They didn’t release them until armed militias showed up and demanded their release. It was 100% a few civilians with rifles that prompted them to hand the cattle back over. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/54 "2015-04-15T15:45:54Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I think he would. I also think he would have paid the fine the court has already ordered him to pay. He made a big enough show of Sticking It To The Man that they backed off rather than escalate it into a shooting match. I’m still not sure why they haven’t found a way to get their money in the past year, though… He has no interesting in paying a fine. They’re going to have to seize his assets, and last time they tried that the militias showed up. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/55 "2015-04-15T15:47:29Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > No, I don’t. > > However, I suspect that some very influential somebodies prevented the armed federal agents from coming back with many, many, more armed federal agents. Who are these influential somebodies that have sway over the federal government? The BLM gave the cattle back because they didn’t want to risk a shootout. Bringing in many, many, more armed federal agents would not have reduced that risk. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/56 "2015-04-15T15:58:33Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Who are these influential somebodies that have sway over the federal government? That is an excellent question. Wish I had asked that. Even if we stipulate that the Feds backed off from the militia, a dubious stipulation, that was over a year ago. Bundy still walks free, still has his ranch, and (as far as I know) hasn’t had any of his assets seized. Are you seriously suggesting that that is the case because the Feds are that afraid of his “militia?” ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/57 "2015-04-15T16:04:46Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Are you seriously suggesting that that is the case because the Feds are that afraid of his “militia?” Yes. Obviously the federal government could seize the cattle again if it really wanted to, but there’s a very good chance that blood would be shed in the process. They don’t want that. People say, “Surely by this point they would have figured out how to do it quietly without any of the Bundys noticing,” but nobody has offered up a viable scenario. Rounding up several hundred head of cattle and transporting them to a cow market has to be hard to do discretely, and as soon as they do it, militias will show up and stand in the way. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/58 "2015-04-15T16:15:27Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Who are these influential somebodies that have sway over the federal government? > > The BLM gave the cattle back because they didn’t want to risk a shootout. Bringing in many, many, more armed federal agents would not have reduced that risk. I thought I listed a few of them earlier. Do you believe the field agents decided to stop the operation, and return the cattle? Or would it have been someone higher up in the agency? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/59 "2015-04-15T16:16:41Z")
After the “militia” incident, they needn’t bother trying to round up the cattle. They have all the pretext they need to snatch up Bundy himself. Is Bundy holed up in a Pablo Escobar-style compound and guarded by his “militia?” IIRC they had all drifted off to other places by mid-summer of last year. I expect now a US Marshalls SWAT team could have him in custody most rikki-tik without anybody being killed. Yet that hasn’t happened. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521/60 "2015-04-15T16:25:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I thought I listed a few of them earlier. > > Do you believe the field agents decided to stop the operation, and return the cattle? Or would it have been someone higher up in the agency? You listed state officials; if you continue to think that state legislators have any influence over the executive branch of the federal government, we’re done here. > [@Scumpup](#): > > After the “militia” incident, they needn’t bother trying to round up the cattle. They have all the pretext they need to snatch up Bundy himself. Is Bundy holed up in a Pablo Escobar-style compound and guarded by his “militia?” IIRC they had all drifted off to other places by mid-summer of last year. I expect now a US Marshalls SWAT team could have him in custody most rikki-tik without anybody being killed. Yet that hasn’t happened. Why do you keep using scare quotes? They are militias; that is how they describe themselves, and that’s the manner in which they’re operating. I’m not convinced that the feds have grounds to arrest Bundy himself. Maybe trespassing, but that’s not much of a charge. Possibly some of his family members for inciting a rebellion, but is that even a charge? Even if it is, it’d be a tough sell, since the militias could claim (somewhat reasonably) that they were operating independently. The feds could identify and arrest the individual militia members who were brandishing their weapons, and frankly I’m disappointed that they didn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-cliven-bundy-et-al-be-arrested-by-the-federal-government/717521.md?page=4)