# When will Obama rescind Executive Order 13233? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2009, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379 "2009-01-22T00:38:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379/61 "2009-01-23T00:58:49Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Hey, **Brain Glutton** , if you want to go knocking on the Army’s door and make that argument, go right ahead. I’m just a layman when it comes to military intelligence, but it seems to me that _two_ countries with a secret weapon is preferable to _two hundred_ countries with a secret weapon. If your math shows differently I’d love to see it. Look, the reason most countries don’t have nukes or bioweapons is that they can’t afford the resources, not that the technology is kept secret from them. It steam-engines when it comes steam-engine time. Stalin would have had the atomic bomb almost as soon without the help of the Rosenbergs. > [@Fish](#): > > I can say that Churchill’s book _World War II_, though published in six volumes starting in 1948 and winning the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1953, had to be heavily redacted: > He also did not reveal that the Americans had broken the Japanese naval codes, or Patton’s role in the fictional First Army Group. Not all military secrets need necessarily be weapons. 🙂 In hindsight, I can’t see how it would have done the Allied nations or the world any harm for Churchill to have included all of those things in his book. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379/62 "2009-01-23T02:27:01Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > I can’t even go that far, **jayjay**. There’s a good reason why certain secrets are classified and we (presumably laypeople in the intelligence biz) shouldn’t feel free to redefine the rules. > > For instance, suppose some bright spark in the U.S. military research division invents a weapon. Do we just hand out the specs for that weapon after 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? > > Suppose somebody in the government detects there’s a critical weakness in our national security that will take decades of work to quietly fill in. Do we release that document to the public? > > Suppose the FBI is investigating some mob boss, or somebody in organized crime, but they haven’t enough to prosecute? Releasing the information too soon could jeopardize legitimate law enforcement. > > I admit I am not wise enough to set the rules for what constitutes a good timeframe for releasing secrets, but I suspect that a blanket “10 years, all government documents revealed, no more secrets, no exceptions” is just asking for trouble. There’s this deliberative body that’s supposed to have oversight over the Executive in certain respects … what’s it called? Oh, yeah, Congress! I’d forgotten during their complete lack of oversight during the Bush/Cheney years. Do ya supposed it MIGHT be possible to have a bipartisan Congressional committee pass on everything to be kept secret? That way, the slimey stuff and the butt covering wouldn’t pass muster, in either a Dem or Pubbie Presidential administration. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379/63 "2009-01-23T03:21:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes – a bad thing to **do** it, not to admit it. > > We **did** have MAD. We could have won the Cold War without cozying up to Thieu or Somoza or Pinochet or the Shah or doing any other “slimey stuff.” Slight hijack: We’ve been cozying up to dictators like them long before the Cold War-especially the Somoza dynasty-we’re the ones who put them in power-remember it was FDR who said, “Somoza may be a son of a bitch-but he’s _our_ son of a bitch\*.” And that was in 1939-long before the Cold War started. Ditto-Pinochet. We pretty much caused the overthrow of the Allende government, and installed Pinochet in his place. Okay, end of hijack. As far as Reagan goes, I don’t think he was dirty-just stupid. It was his cabinet running the show. (Remember, he was also in the early stages of Alzheimers) I don’t think he was nearly intelligent enough to come up with Iran-Contra on his own. ---
**Author:** ![Clu-Me-In](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@Clu-Me-In](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu-Me-In)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379/64 "2009-01-23T04:04:08Z")
**[Obama Revokes Bush Executive Order on Presidential Archives](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21816.htm)** ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379/65 "2009-01-23T05:17:52Z")
nvm ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379/66 "2009-01-23T05:25:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Wow. > > You know, there’s a generally accepted theory of national security that says a country shouldn’t make everything it does (or can do) public. Given this expresident has proven to be nothing but a lying incompetent fool, and a war criminal, that can’t be trusted; where’s the oversight? How do know where’s he’s abusing his power and where there’s legitimate concern? Don’t we the voters deserve to know the full calamity of the actions of the Bush voters? I’ll never forgive republicans for Bush. It was truly a hateful thing they did to America by running him and his fear based lies and bullying. Republicans did more damaged to American then Al Qaeda ever could. They’re worse for America then terrorists in over all damage impact. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379/67 "2009-01-23T06:48:17Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > …As far as Reagan goes, I don’t think he was dirty-just stupid. It was his cabinet running the show. (Remember, he was also in the early stages of Alzheimers) > > I don’t think he was nearly intelligent enough to come up with Iran-Contra on his own. Plausible conjecture. Only reason I hesitate is that it isn’t heavy enough to warrant this sort of effort. The scheduled release of the Reagan Papers was a matter of law, the work that went into keeping the lid on was substantial. They could have easily explained away Reagan’s disengagement as some sort of management style crap, a “hands off” leader blah blah blah. Not worth it to arouse so much suspicion. But, who knows? Maybe the dumbfucks spent all this energy covering up some two bit triviality about St. Ronnie of Bakersfield. It’s not like they have any sense of proportion. I don’t think we’re talking totally _huge_, like Bush the Dad was a Communist mole run by Alger Hiss and John Kerry. Something semi-huge. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379/68 "2009-01-23T13:41:23Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > I agree with Obama’s take on the FOIA. Err on the side of releasing information to the public, but examine every request on a case-by-case basis. Don’t make the applicant prove his need for the information, make the government prove the case for secrecy. This, in principle, is the way things operate in the UK - overseen by an independent FOI Commissioner. The current scope and rules have been in place since 2005, and it’s interesting how this has worked. Some issues are resolved quickly and efficiently (there is an initial 20 working day turnaround rule), others run on for months or years as they are disputed. My sense (as a Private Eye reader) is that ministers and senior civil servants are becoming better at establishing reasons for non-disclosure (damage to commercial interests is the key one given) and case-law is still being developed. However, the tendency seems to be that the longer people stay in office, the more they decide should be protected - often on dubious grounds (transparency of government expense claims, for instance, was disputed for a long time, even though it utilises taxpayer’s money and the public must have a right to know how that is spent). I hope Obama and his administration don’t go the same way. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379/69 "2009-01-23T14:20:43Z")
> [@Martiju](#): > > However, the tendency seems to be that the longer people stay in office, the more they decide should be protected . . . Has term limits ever been a political issue in the UK? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379/70 "2009-01-23T14:30:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Has term limits ever been a political issue in the UK? Not really. We don’t elect Prime Ministers. The PM is generally whoever is head of the majority party. Elections are not held at fixed intervals either so there are no ‘terms’ per se. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379/71 "2009-01-23T14:50:31Z")
I just read the EO. Thank you, Barack Obama. You are reinforcing that this country and I have made the right choice. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379/72 "2009-01-23T15:52:14Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > I think complete and total transparency in government is not only impossible, but impractical. I would be extremely hesitant to suggest that there’s no valid reason to conceal anything government ever does, ever, for any length of time — I do not like sweeping generalities, because the devil is _always_ in the details. > > I agree with Obama’s take on the FOIA. Err on the side of releasing information to the public, but examine every request on a case-by-case basis. Don’t make the applicant prove his need for the information, make the government prove the case for secrecy. So you accept the principal and now we discuss to what degree. I favor more open governments than most. I believe many get into government for looting and power grabbing. I do not trust most pols. Turn on the lights ans show me what they are doing. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379/73 "2009-01-23T16:54:13Z")
I think we’ve touched upon some interesting points here re: national security exceptions. I’d like to tease that out a bit more. For example, I think it’s important that we NOT release information on things like weapons development, positioning of forces, identity and location of intelligence operatives, etc. Revealing these sorts of things could give our foes an advantage, and harm our security in a tangible way. But many would like to lump in things that would merely harm our country’s IMAGE, or damage our foreign policy capabilities. For example, the feds have still [never released that Abu Ghraib video](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=342802&highlight=ghraib+video) that made [Seymour Hersh](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/7/14/193750/666) cringe. Would this damage our public image abroad? Probably (although, now, we can just blame it on the previous administration). Would it affect our national security? Not tangibly. Yes, it might incite more people to join foreign extremists vs. the USA. But so could the entire Abu Ghraib scandal, period, as well as My Lai, or any of our mistaken bombings of Afghani wedding celebrations over the last few years. Should we have just clammed up entirely about all of those, and said, “Sorry, can neither confirm nor deny. Move along.” ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-obama-rescind-executive-order-13233/482379.md?page=3)