# When will prostitution start to be mainstream legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710 "2012-11-11T20:24:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/21 "2012-11-12T05:24:14Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Does Nevada make much money from sex-tourism? I have the impression that its not really a big draw (certainly not compared to legal gambling), but I could be wrong. Long-haul truckers. My understanding is that these guys represent a sizable chunk of the market. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/22 "2012-11-12T13:44:02Z")
After the Netherlands legalized prostitution, they found that it was making their country a haven for international criminal gangs. (Liberal drug laws didn’t help either.) Women were being trafficked in from eastern Europe and southeast Asia and forced to work as prostitutes. Laws against prostitution are necessary to protect women against that sort of thing. ([This article in the New Yorker](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/12/07/091207fa_fact_buruma) explores what happened in the Netherlands, though unfortunately the full text isn’t available for free.) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/23 "2012-11-12T13:48:17Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Women were being trafficked in from eastern Europe and southeast Asia and forced to work as prostitutes. Laws against prostitution are necessary to protect women against that sort of thing. You mean like how laws against agriculture were necessary to stop the Atlantic slave trade? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/24 "2012-11-12T14:30:13Z")
A somewhat different question: who was the first US President to bring hookers into the Whitehouse? I think a good start would be if the president endorsed (legal prostitution). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/25 "2012-11-12T14:35:00Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > You mean like how laws against agriculture were necessary to stop the Atlantic slave trade? Really. Having anything be “legal” yet, at the same time, not doing much about enforcing against unfair or exploitive practices as long as those affected are “outsiders” (social or national) is only an improvement for those doing the exploiting. Legalizing and regulating prostitution _should_ not require tolerating pimping and trafficking any more than legal farm/domestic work, day labor or free trade should require tolerating exploitation of legal or illegal immigrants, child labor, or sweatshop practices. But we know how well we’re all doing about THAT in real-world applications… ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/26 "2012-11-12T19:36:45Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Laws against prostitution are necessary to protect women against that sort of thing. …no they aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/27 "2012-11-12T20:27:59Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Canada: I get the impression that it’s legal because nobody bothered to make it illegal, not because someone passed a bill making it legal? The way it works in Canada is that nothing can violate the criminal code unless it is prohibited by the criminal code. That’s a fundamental part of a free nation. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/28 "2012-11-12T22:07:42Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Really. Having anything be “legal” yet, at the same time, not doing much about enforcing against unfair or exploitive practices as long as those affected are “outsiders” (social or national) is only an improvement for those doing the exploiting. I entirely agree. I’m just not aware of any country that has legalized prostitution while successfully abolish the unfair and exploitative practices that have always traveled along with prostitution. I’m not aware of any instance in which prostitution has existed while the rights and dignity of the women who work as prostitutes have been respected. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/29 "2012-11-12T23:09:07Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > After the Netherlands legalized prostitution, they found that it was making their country a haven for international criminal gangs. (Liberal drug laws didn’t help either.) Women were being trafficked in from eastern Europe and southeast Asia and forced to work as prostitutes. Laws against prostitution are necessary to protect women against that sort of thing. Prostitution has NEVER been illegal in the Netherlands. IF you’re seriously going to attempt to argue the later parts of your statement, at least get the premise correct. WRT trafficking, good luck finding reliable cites to back up your claims. Virtually all of the numbers that get bandied about come from anti-trafficking organizations that explicitly include elimination of legal prostitution as a major part of their agenda and have a long history of simply making up numbers keep their funding flowing. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I entirely agree. I’m just not aware of any country that has legalized prostitution while successfully abolish the unfair and exploitative practices that have always traveled along with prostitution. Are you aware of any country that has criminalized prostitution while successfully abolish[ing] the unfair and exploitative practices that have always traveled along with prostitution? Yes, bad stuff does occur that involves prostitution, and we should try to stop it. But it’s plainly obvious that criminalizing it can only make it worse. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m not aware of any instance in which prostitution has existed while the rights and dignity of the women who work as prostitutes have been respected. What are you even trying to say? Every prostitute ever has had their “rights and dignity” violated? It’s utterly impossible for any sex work activity to occur that isn’t bad in some way? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/30 "2012-11-12T23:57:28Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > A somewhat different question: who was the first US President to bring hookers into the Whitehouse? > I think a good start would be if the president endorsed (legal prostitution). I’d suspect Lincoln, but that’s only a general feeling. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/31 "2012-11-13T00:12:37Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I entirely agree. I’m just not aware of any country that has legalized prostitution while successfully abolish the unfair and exploitative practices that have always traveled along with prostitution. I’m not aware of any instance in which prostitution has existed while the rights and dignity of the women who work as prostitutes have been respected. …I haven’t seen any countries that have successfully abolished murder either. And I fail to see what you think is dignified about arresting and putting in jail a woman for having sex. Do you really think that the act of criminalizing sex is a respectful act? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/32 "2012-11-13T00:24:23Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The way it works in Canada is that nothing can violate the criminal code unless it is prohibited by the criminal code. That’s a fundamental part of a free nation. That’s great. Not related at all though and completely tangential It was for clarification that they didn’t “legalize” it like other places. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/33 "2012-11-13T01:14:40Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I entirely agree. I’m just not aware of any country that has legalized prostitution while successfully abolish the unfair and exploitative practices that have always traveled along with prostitution. I’m not aware of any instance in which prostitution has existed while the rights and dignity of the women who work as prostitutes have been respected. The point is, you could substitute any other working-class occupation for “prostitution” and this statement is equally true (which is to say, partially and variably). Workers have always been subject to exploitation, to the extent that the law and culture tolerate. The world would be a better place if the room for exploitation was reduced. Let’s work on that. How do you suppose people who work in the most-exploited sectors could best be protected? By arresting them? By dissuading them from publicizing abuses? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/34 "2012-11-13T03:51:52Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > WRT trafficking, good luck finding reliable cites to back up your claims. I’ve already provided a cite. I cannot recall that anyone in any of our many threads about prostitution has ever provided a cite documenting positive effects of legalizing it. > [@kenetic](#): > > Yes, bad stuff does occur that involves prostitution, and we should try to stop it. But it’s plainly obvious that criminalizing it can only make it worse. It’s not “plainly obvious” to me. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > The point is, you could substitute any other working-class occupation for “prostitution” and this statement is equally true (which is to say, partially and variably). The notion that the level of exploitation and harm among prostitutes and sex workers is in any way comparable to the level among other jobs doesn’t ring true to me. I know of group homes, shelters, and other charities that are dedicated to helping former sex workers recover from the physical and mental injuries that they suffered while they were sex workers. I do not know of any comparable institutions devoted to the recovery of former lawyers, accountants, dentists, landscapers, or any other mainstream profession. To me, the logical conclusion from this is that sex work inflicts harm on the workers in a way that other professions do not. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/35 "2012-11-13T04:57:49Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’ve already provided a cite. I cannot recall that anyone in any of our many threads about prostitution has ever provided a cite documenting positive effects of legalizing it. …you provided one cite in this thread: a stream of consciousness unformatted musing of a Dutch academic hidden behind a paywall. Very convincing. :rolleyes: > **[Stuff](https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6892059/NZ-prostitutes-better-off)** > **[pdf-811-kb-018607.pdf](https://www.otago.ac.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0027/248760/pdf-811-kb-018607.pdf)** > > 819.21 KB The Otago University study is substantially better cited from primary sources than the musings of Ian Buruma. > [@](#): > > The notion that the level of exploitation and harm among prostitutes and sex workers is in any way comparable to the level among other jobs doesn’t ring true to me. Living a sheltered life can do that to someone. > [@](#): > > I know of group homes, shelters, and other charities that are dedicated to helping former sex workers recover from the physical and mental injuries that they suffered while they were sex workers. Can you name some of these homes, shelters and charities in “prostitution is legal” New Zealand? > [@](#): > > I do not know of any comparable institutions devoted to the recovery of former lawyers, accountants, dentists, landscapers, or any other mainstream profession. To me, the logical conclusion from this is that sex work inflicts harm on the workers in a way that other professions do not. And yet there is no shortage of former lawyers, accountants, dentists, landscapers, and other mainstream professions in shelters and drug rehab. You are overstating “the recovery industry.” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/36 "2012-11-13T05:09:24Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > It’s not “plainly obvious” to me. Here’s the Ontario Court of Appeal decision made earlier this year in [Canada (Attorney General) v. Bedford, 2012 ONCA 186](http://www.ontariocourts.ca/decisions/2012/2012ONCA0186.htm#_Toc320089351) that addresses how legalizing some of the activities associated with prostitution would make prostitution safer. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/37 "2012-11-13T05:21:46Z")
…as for positive effects of legalizing prostitution: read Georgina Beyers words again. Prostitution isn’t going away. People who have sex in exchange for money are no longer criminals. They pay their taxes. They get the full protection of the law. There are policemen in jail right now because they did things that they would have gotten away with before legalization. [Prostitution now have OSH protections.](http://www.osh.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/sexindustry.pdf) > [@](#): > > If I had had a law like this to protect me and give me some teeth for redress when I was 16 and 17 years old—even on entering into the sex industry—then I might have been spared the 5 or so years I spent in that industry. Barriers would have been created against people who would coerce those under 18 to enter the sex industry in the first place. I support this bill for all the prostitutes I have ever known who have died before the age of 20 because of the inhumanity and hypocrisy of a society that would not ever give them the chance to redeem whatever circumstances made them arrive in that industry. Read those words again. And again until they sink in. You support a system without redress. Without adequate barriers. Where the men and women who participate in the industry are stigmatized. That is less safe. Its a “nanny state mother knows best” attitude that completely ignores the wishes of those that are most affected. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/38 "2012-11-13T09:26:42Z")
People really need to stop equating “legal prostitution” with “Netherlands”. The Dutch system is an example of bad practice in legalisation. Nobody who advocates for the rights of sex workers supports the Dutch model. It’s like citing Ceaucescu’s Romania as a model of anti-abortion policy. In addition to the New Zealand studies linked to above, I’d also point out a recent [joint report by the UN Development Programme, UNFPA and UNAIDS](http://www.undp.org/content/undp/en/home/presscenter/pressreleases/2012/10/18/new-un-report-takes-a-stark-look-at-links-between-sex-work-hiv-and-the-law-in-asia-and-the-pacific/) which studied prostitution laws in the entire Asia-South Pacific region and concluded that > [@](#): > > evidence from the jurisdictions in the region that have decriminalized sex work – New Zealand and New South Wales (Australia) – indicates that the approach of defining sex work as legitimate labour empowers sex workers, increases their access to HIV and sexual health services and is associated with very high condom use rate The report finds that criminalisation, on the other hand, is found to be linked to violence, stigma, discrimination and a greater risk of HIV/AIDS. In fact this is what studies all over the globe have found. Criminalisation does **not** protect sex workers; just the opposite. Check out also the [LASH reports](http://nothing-about-us-without-us.com/the-sex-industry-in-nsw-a-report-to-the-nsw-ministry-of-health_the-kirby-institute-faculty-of-medicine-university-of-new-south-wales/) from the Kirby Institute in Sydney, which compared the situation for sex workers under decriminalisation in New South Wales, legalisation in Victoria and criminalisation in Western Australia. NSW comes out well ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/39 "2012-11-13T10:21:45Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Really. Having anything be “legal” yet, at the same time, not doing much about enforcing against unfair or exploitive practices as long as those affected are “outsiders” (social or national) is only an improvement for those doing the exploiting. Legalizing and regulating prostitution _should_ not require tolerating pimping and trafficking any more than legal farm/domestic work, day labor or free trade should require tolerating exploitation of legal or illegal immigrants, child labor, or sweatshop practices. But we know how well we’re all doing about THAT in real-world applications… I understand what you are saying but lets imagine a person who is an exploited agricultural worker or indeed an exploited asian fishery ship worker (a live issue in NZ at the moment). Would prosecuting those poor souls ie. condemning them for their work actually help them at all? Of course not. All we’d do is victimise the victims further. In NZ, because sex work is lawful, taxes get paid and the protection of employment laws is available which is no minor thing. Employers shiver at the threat of an employment claim. Noone says prostitution is an excellent career or encourages it. In fact I understand its a declining occupation since legalisation - not enough money or clients. The vulnerable can get drawn in but that happens in every society - consider Oliver Twist. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710/40 "2012-11-13T13:11:59Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > I understand what you are saying but lets imagine a person who is an exploited agricultural worker or indeed an exploited asian fishery ship worker (a live issue in NZ at the moment). Would prosecuting those poor souls ie. condemning them for their work actually help them at all? No, and my point to **ITR** was that if we want to fight trafficking and pimping, then let’s fight _trafficking and pimping_ – legalization of the practice of prostitution should be accompanied by a strong structure of sex worlers’ rights protection; just as domestics and migrant farm day-laborers should have the right to complain of abuse and forced labor without themselves being exposed to punishment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-prostitution-start-to-be-mainstream-legal/640710.md?page=3)