# When will the swastika be freed of Nazi associations? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592 "2008-02-14T14:41:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/81 "2009-05-01T18:10:03Z")
Clearly in some contexts like a Buddhist or Hindu temple the Swastika is not a Nazi symbol. To hate it in such contexts is really bizarre and foolish even if you are Jewish or live in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Reepicheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@Reepicheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reepicheep)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/82 "2009-05-01T19:51:01Z")
To get back to the answer of the OP, in about 200 years. When the great grand children of the people inflamed by the symbol are passing the reins of power to the next generation. Lets go back to the Confederate flag. Within the last 5 years, we in the US have had political arguments about it, mostly lead by people 50 years and older. The majority of the people arguing against use of the flag on the State house are people who remember mandated segregation or who know someone who remembers mandated segregation. Dollars to gumdrops, in about 30 years there will probably be a annual holiday where the flag is flow over the State house and people take pictures to honor the heroes of the Confederacy. Families will have stories of ancestors who were slaves, but they will be ancestors – not someone that anyone living remembers meeting. The people with power then will be the 20 year olds of today. None of them have known institutional racism, yes they have been exposed to racist attitudes but not to institutional racism. To then the civil rights marches, let alone the Civil War are history. To them, especially in their later lives, the flag of the Confederacy is purely a symbol, a symbol of other peoples stupidity and oppression, but not something that touches their daily lives. There are numerous people still living who remember the horrors of the Nazis. To them the swastika is not a pure symbol, it does touch their daily lives, and the lives of their families. I’m in my late 40s and I know a person who was in a concentration camp. However, to the children I come in contact with the swastika is the symbol of the bad guys in Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull. As they get older I’ll tell my stories about the person I know, and the people who know people who lived through Nazism will tell their stories. To the grandchildren of the kids today there will only be stories of their ancestors, and the swastika will be symbol from those stories (and pictures from history class). Since the world is much more mobile they will, most probably, know people who do not have similar stories from their ancestors. To these friends the symbol has always been benign. So, to the children of the grandkids of today’s kids, the swastika will have 2 meanings, with the second being the most prominent. The black swastika on a white background surrounded by red will probably continue to be seen as the Nazis symbol. However, the swastika, the broken X with the feet going the same way, will be just another symbol, like a wheel or an arrow. To answer the question of should we try to redeem the swastika now, no we should not. It means too much to people who are alive today. It will be redeemed in time. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/83 "2009-05-01T20:06:13Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > To answer the OP, the answer is never. My above explanation shows why the Nazi symbol is easily divorced form it historical use elsewhere. And there is that pesky “To forget history is to make sure it is repeated” meme. Nobody is proposing that we forget the Nazis, WW2, the Holocaust or antisemitism. Just that their symbol be stripped of its hateful connotations. I don’t get the abject hatred for a symbol. Hate what it symbolizes, okay. But if people agree to let this particular symbol take on more positive connotations and let its associations with Nazism fall by the wayside, that in no way cheapens Jewish history or minimizes the Holocaust. People won’t forget about Hitler. Does anybody know what Genghis Kahn’s personal symbol was? Does that mean ruthless warmongering and world domination is acceptable now? For that matter, the fact that the Stars and Stripes _doesn’t_ symbolize \>200 years worth of slavery isn’t evidence that we’ve forgotten how evil that was. [QUOTE=Lantern] Clearly in some contexts like a Buddhist or Hindu temple the Swastika is not a Nazi symbol. To hate it in such contexts is really bizarre and foolish even if you are Jewish or live in Israel. [/QUOTE] What if you are a Buddhist in the US or Israel? What if you are a non-Buddhist but particularly like some of their symbols? What if you’re British and just bought a purse made in India adorned with green swastikas? Where do you draw the line? Can’t we just address racism when people actually show themselves to be racists, and stop trying to read between the lines of whatever symbols others associate with? I guess what I’m saying is that people choose symbols for all sorts of personal reasons, with often no thought to their historical associations. Let’s judge people on their merits and not on our expectations and perceptions. (For what it’s worth, this entire post could be dropped into the Confederate Flag thread with little modification.) ---
**Author:** ![Reepicheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@Reepicheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reepicheep)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/84 "2009-05-01T20:20:16Z")
> [@Reepicheep](#): > > However, to the children I come in contact with the swastika is the symbol of the bad guys in Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull. This should be Indiana Jones before the Crystal Skull. It has been pointed out to me that the bad guys in Crystal Skull were Soviets. We can all tell I do not pay enough attention to bad guys. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/85 "2009-05-01T20:39:42Z")
You know, it’s not just Jews who hate Nazis. Face facts. The swastika was used an emblem of genocide and war. Why the fuck is it so important to you all to be able to display a swastika? As I said before, it’s just a symbol. Why is it that people who are against Nazism should get over it? Why don’t you get over it? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/86 "2009-05-01T21:13:00Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You know, it’s not just Jews who hate Nazis. > > Face facts. The swastika was used an emblem of genocide and war. Why the fuck is it so important to you all to be able to display a swastika? > > As I said before, it’s just a symbol. Why is it that people who are against Nazism should get over it? Why don’t you get over it? I don’t give two shits about redeeming the swastika or getting over Nazis or any of that. I just think it is only fair to give someone the benefit of the doubt and NOT assume they are racist assholes before you ever even talk to them. I also think freedom of speech and expression trumps whatever offense others might take at ancient symbolism. Furthermore, even if a symbol is heavily laden with hatred and murderous associations, people should be free to reinterpret that symbol in a more positive light. Crucifixes were once symbols intended to put the fear of a terrible execution into Roman slaves. Now they have a much more positive connotation. If someone wants to put swastikas to more respectable use, what is the problem with that? Why are you so heavily invested in maintaining its hateful symbolism? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/87 "2009-05-02T00:15:31Z")
In America, I say never. Only because in the recent years besides WWII references, I’ve only seen the Swastika used with: Venice Beach Skinheads, White Supremacy groups and the ever popular (but also dwindling in membership) KKK. I recently mentioned I was given pamphlets by skinheads in another post. They had the Swastika tats with “88” on their knuckles. Hate groups like this who use the swastika as a symbol for their hatred are the only ones we ever really see in public. At least there’s another reason to hate the Nazis. They ruined a peaceful symbol’s rep. ---
**Author:** ![SomeBodyUK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@SomeBodyUK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SomeBodyUK)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/88 "2009-05-02T01:42:42Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You know, it’s not just Jews who hate Nazis. > > Face facts. The swastika was used an emblem of genocide and war. Why the fuck is it so important to you all to be able to display a swastika? > > As I said before, it’s just a symbol. Why is it that people who are against Nazism should get over it? Why don’t you get over it? Erm, many of my relatives are Hindus - can’t they display one? My family is/was against Nazism - many Indians fought against them WW2, including distant relatives of mine. [Here’s an Indian soldier in WW2 with a captured Nazi flag](http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY/Images/0129.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/89 "2009-05-02T02:40:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Outside of the West, I imagine it IS free of Nazi associations, at least in places. But in the U.S. and Europe? Don’t hold your breath. The fact is that a vast majority of people see the swastika and think of Nazis, and it’d take a very long time for that to fade. There is still a fair number of living Holocaust survivors, and they certainly won’t see it without thinking of the Nazi associations. Their children won’t either, and who knows about those people’s children. > > Symbols are symbols - they are meant to represent things. I don’t see any reason they need to be cleansed. Are we only supposed to have symbols for things that are good? And we also have a contemporary [White Nationalist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Nationalist) subculture that uses the swastika to mean the same things the Nazis did, and it therefore keeps the symbolic memory alive, and it shows no signs of going away. When WNs are as rare and old-fashioned in America as Communists are now, then the bad odor around the swastika might begin to fade. (American Nazis **are** extremely rare, but the WN community is a lot more than them.) ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/90 "2009-05-02T03:59:39Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > At least there’s another reason to hate the Nazis. They ruined a peaceful symbol’s rep. Couldn’t you just imagine how awesome it would be to change the meaning of that symbol while present day neo-nazis are still alive? You have to find humor in the image of these clowns discovering they’d tattooed themselves with Buddhist symbols of peace and love. That’s like Rush Limbaugh waking up one day to find out he’s covered in hippy tattoos and that portrait over his mantle he thought was Reagan was actually Karl Marx all along. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/91 "2009-05-02T07:52:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Outside of the West, I imagine it IS free of Nazi associations, at least in places. But in the U.S. and Europe? Don’t hold your breath. The fact is that a vast majority of people see the swastika and think of Nazis, and it’d take a very long time for that to fade. There is still a fair number of living Holocaust survivors, and they certainly won’t see it without thinking of the Nazi associations. Their children won’t either, and who knows about those people’s children. > > Symbols are symbols - they are meant to represent things. I don’t see any reason they need to be cleansed. Are we only supposed to have symbols for things that are good? Maybe some things should not be cleansed. Symbols can be a powerful thing. They can remind us of what happened before, and how bad it was. ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/92 "2009-05-02T08:54:54Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Clearly in some contexts like a Buddhist or Hindu temple the Swastika is not a Nazi symbol. To hate it in such contexts is really bizarre and foolish even if you are Jewish or live in Israel. Not just an Eastern symbol. It was commonly used by Native Americans in the southwest, at least, too. You can see it prominently displayed as decoration on “Pueblo Art Deco” buildings in New Mexico, such as the Kimo Theater in Albuquerque and the [Shaffer Hotel](http://http://shafferhotel.com/)in Mountainair. It faces both directions. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/93 "2009-05-02T09:09:44Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Couldn’t you just imagine how awesome it would be to change the meaning of that symbol while present day neo-nazis are still alive? You have to find humor in the image of these clowns discovering they’d tattooed themselves with Buddhist symbols of peace and love. > > That’s like Rush Limbaugh waking up one day to find out he’s covered in hippy tattoos and that portrait over his mantle he thought was Reagan was actually Karl Marx all along. This is part of the reason why I would love to see the Swastica be restored. Like it or not, there are groups that use it as a symbol of intimidation - if we are able to restore it, we are robbing them of some of their power. Secondly, do note that the operative word is RESTORE. This is not some random symbol that some person has decided should have a different meaning. For thousands of years it has had a very positive meaning. Until it was appropriated by the Nazis. Another symbol of Nazism could also be considered to be “88” - a number that is considered very lucky to the Chinese…if I wanted a “good luck tattoo” I may consider 88 - would that make me a Nazi? What if an American were told that they couldn’t use the Eagle, because of its assocaition with Nazism? Sure its going to be a very long process of education and restoration, but to let the Swastica stand as a symbol of repression is to rob something from those that have been uisng it for thousands of years. This is neither fair nor right. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/94 "2009-05-02T19:59:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But it’s a symbol of hate in \*my \*culture. Well, it seems you need to question your culture then. Clinging to pathetic beliefs like this is perpetuating historical hatreds as much as any neo-nazi’s “Sieg Heil” chant. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/95 "2009-05-02T23:42:15Z")
Gosh, I’m so sorry the little squiggly figure with the crooked lines is having his feelings hurt just because some bad people put him on a flag a while back. Weep for the little squiggly figure… weep… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/96 "2009-05-03T00:10:08Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > I know the basic history of the device, and I know that in the wilds of the Mysterious Orient, it’s not associated with Nazis. > > But it’s not ass-backwards to understand that in the West, it’s a Nazi symbol, and must be co-opted (is re-co-opted better?) before it changes meaning. > > Sheesh. Thing is, in the West the swastika never meant much of **anything** before Hitler, so there is no older or purer meaning to restore. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/97 "2009-05-03T00:13:29Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Another symbol of Nazism could also be considered to be “88” - a number that is considered very lucky to the Chinese…if I wanted a “good luck tattoo” I may consider 88 - would that make me a Nazi? I don’t think anyone will ever consider getting an “88” tattoo in Arabic numerals because it is a lucky number in China. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/98 "2009-05-03T02:11:21Z")
I would be interested to know if you wore a t shirt with this version in the US would anyone care: > **[File:HinduSwastika.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HinduSwastika.svg)** > > Original file ‎(SVG file, nominally 142 × 145 pixels, file size: 4 KB) > > > \[\[File:HinduSwastika.svg|border|96x176px\]\] Simple really, avoid making it black and chunky on a white circle on a field of red and I think you’ll find it much easier to “restore”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/99 "2009-05-03T04:57:22Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Well, it seems you need to question your culture then. Clinging to pathetic beliefs like this is perpetuating historical hatreds as much as any neo-nazi’s “Sieg Heil” chant. I’m sorry that my culture is not a decaying shell of its former self like yours. Personally, I considering remembering our past - including remembering our enemies - as a virtue and a source of strength. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/100 "2009-05-03T06:42:54Z")
Hey, when will “national socialism” be free of Hitlerian connotations, that’s what I want to know! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592.md?page=6)