# When will the swastika be freed of Nazi associations? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592 "2008-02-14T14:41:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/101 "2009-05-03T10:50:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Thing is, in the West the swastika never meant much of **anything** before Hitler, so there is no older or purer meaning to restore. It seems to have been used in various places and cultures in the west before the nazis. > **[Swastika](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Historical_use_in_the_West)** > > The swastika (/ˈswɒstɪkə/ SWOST-ik-ə, .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}Sanskrit: \[ˈsʋɐstikɐ\]; 卐 or 卍) is a symbol that has been used in many cultures and religions of Eurasia, as well as a few in Africa and the Americas, for thousands of years. The swastika was and continues to be used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in s... ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/102 "2009-05-03T11:19:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m sorry that my culture is not a decaying shell of its former self like yours. > > Personally, I considering remembering our past - including remembering our enemies - as a virtue and a source of strength. Oh, you mean the crumbling giant that once was Great Britain? Yes, it is a bit of a sore point. Good on you. There’s nothing like the thought of settling old scores to keep your mind sharp. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/103 "2009-05-03T11:52:41Z")
I think the “offensiveness” of the Swastika in relation to WWII also depends which part of the world you’re in. For example, I don’t know anyone in this part of the world who still holds a grudge against the Germans for their role in WWII. But the Japanese, on the other hand… the Japanese did some extremely unpleasant things during The War and I do know a number of war veterans and baby boomers who still won’t buy Japanese goods. Everyone knows that the Nazis were horrid and nasty etc, but 60 years of bad propaganda films, Ealing comedies, _Hogan’s Heroes_, _Allo, Allo_, _The Producers_, and Indiana Jones films have basically reduced The Nazis to a harmless stereotype best described as [_Those Wacky Nazis_](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThoseWackyNazis). It’s a bit hard for people of my generation outside the US and mainland Europe to see the Swastika as the purest symbol of Evil, Genocide, and Repression when most of them have only been exposed to it via the [del]Hitler[/del] History Channel and films/TV shows like the ones I mentioned above. Sure, if you’re Jewish, then understandably the swastika is _never_ going to lose its association with The Nazis & The Holocaust Double-Bill. But for the rest of us- the 99.998% of the world’s population who aren’t Jewish- eventually the swastika is simply going to become “Flag of Nazi Germany 1933-1945” in the same category as any other historic country’s flag. Perhaps- and I stress _perhaps_- that’s a good thing. It’s not always healthy to bear grudges for an extended period of time, especially when all the people directly responsible for it are long dead. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/104 "2009-05-03T12:06:02Z")
I happened to see a pictute of the (former) King of Nepal’s palace-the doors are decorated with swastikas. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/105 "2009-05-03T16:07:59Z")
Hell, my local YMCA has swastikas on the tile floor (built in 1932) and I’m fairly sure that its builders were not Nazis. Should I petition them to cover them up? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/106 "2009-05-04T20:23:55Z")
Once I went to a performance of Bharata Natyam at a Hare Kṛṣṇa temple. The dancer had swastikas of henna on her bare feet among other decorations. I was curious about what the different directions of rotation symbolized and started to ask one of the Hare Kṛṣṇas about this. But before I could get the question out, he immediately began spluttering that it’s an ancient Hindu symbol and has nothing to do with Nazism. OK, I knew that already. He was obviously on edge about what people would say. “Maybe the flag with the black spider on it makes people nervous.” **Alessan** , how do you feel about this [Jewish swastika](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jewish_swastika.jpg) made from letters of the Hebrew alphabet? From _Parashat Eliezer_ by Rabbi Eliezer ben Isaac Fischel (18th century). It was recently reprinted in Jerusalem. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/107 "2009-05-04T21:53:56Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > **Alessan** , how do you feel about this [Jewish swastika](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jewish_swastika.jpg) made from letters of the Hebrew alphabet? From _Parashat Eliezer_ by Rabbi Eliezer ben Isaac Fischel (18th century). It was recently reprinted in Jerusalem. It’s fascinating from a historic point of view, but it’s not hard to understand why it’s not that popular these days. Symbols, of course, have no independent meaning beyond whatever meaning people choose to give them. The meaning of the Swastika in Jewish culture has changed a bit since the 18th century, to put hings mildly. Look - I’m obviously not going to tell anyone to change my culture, just as no-one’s going to tell me to change mine. Obviously Buddhists are going to continue using the Swastika, and obviously Jews are going to feel uncomfortable when they see one. Both courses are equally valid. The thing is.. to me, a Westerner insisting that “the Swastika is an ancient Eastern symbol” is the equivalent of saying “the Nazis made the trains run on time.” Both statements may be factually correct - but both make me doubt the motives of the speaker. If you’re not a Buddhist or a Native American, why do you care so much? Why do you believe the positive connotations should take precedence over the negative? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/108 "2009-05-04T23:32:30Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > As long as Jews live the Swastika will be associated with the Nazis. No other group on the planet keeps more meticulous historical records. The Nazis or the Jews? I know that the Nazis kept really meticulous records of the horrific acts they committed but it’s unclear here if you’re saying that the Jews are keeping meticulous historical records (though I was unaware that they were a monolithic group or that they were the only ones responsible for recording Holocaust history) or if you’re saying that the Nazis kept such great records and that’s why we remember it. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/109 "2009-05-05T02:44:55Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > Wowo have people here arguing about “stealing” symbols from teh East ever actually been tot he East and seen those sympbols in use? I’ve spent plenty of time in “teh East”, and yeah, I see swastikas every day. It really means nothing here. And I think that as our cultures become closer we will get used to it in the West. Really, you get over the shock once you’ve seen a couple temples covered in swastikas. **Alessan** , how would you feel if some genocidal regime in Asia decided to use the star of David as their symbol? Would you gladly give it up? Or would you argue that it was your symbol first? Wouldn’t you be more than a little resentful about the whole thing. What is my stake in this? Well, the first is raw education. Seeing swastikas on temples (or stickers or buses or whatever) freaks people out, and from a pure “fighting ignorance” point of view I think it’s better if people have a better understanding of why other cultures use swastikas. The other is that I’m against the essentializing of WWII (or any historical event, really.) When we focus on this time period, we need to focus on the real people and events, not the symbols and stereotypes. We can’t make the holocaust into a fairy tale of pure good and pure evil. Because then it will stop being real to us. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/110 "2009-05-05T02:58:39Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > We can’t make the holocaust into a fairy tale of pure good and pure evil. Because then it will stop being real to us. In the case of World War II, I think we’re already too late, to be honest. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/111 "2009-05-05T07:24:03Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > I very sincerely hope that your beliefs are in a minority, or we are not going to have anything even resembling peace in the region for a very long time. Why? Because the Middle East is known for Jewish/Hindu and Jewish/Buddhist conflict? Look, a lot of Jews (and a lot of non-Jews too) have a negative emotional reaction to the swastika. World War II is still in living memory. There are people alive today who suffered during the Nazi regime. There are people alive today who were part of the Nazi regime. Saying, “You shouldn’t be bothered because a swastika isn’t necessarily a Nazi symbol” is silly, first of all, because, in addition to whatever it can mean in Buddhism or Hinduism or wherever, it is a Nazi symbol, and a European is going to think of the Nazis before he thinks of the Hindus, and secondly, because it’s a fools errand telling somebody that their feelings aren’t logical. Whether they’re logical or not, they still have them, and telling somebody that they shouldn’t feel a certain way has never stopped somebody from feeling that way. I know why other cultures use swastikas. That doesn’t make a difference to me in how seeing a swastika makes me feel. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/112 "2009-05-06T03:00:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Why? Because the Middle East is known for Jewish/Hindu and Jewish/Buddhist conflict? Look, a lot of Jews (and a lot of non-Jews too) have a negative emotional reaction to the swastika. World War II is still in living memory. There are people alive today who suffered during the Nazi regime. There are people alive today who were part of the Nazi regime. Saying, “You shouldn’t be bothered because a swastika isn’t necessarily a Nazi symbol” is silly, first of all, because, in addition to whatever it can mean in Buddhism or Hinduism or wherever, it is a Nazi symbol, and a European is going to think of the Nazis before he thinks of the Hindus, and secondly, because it’s a fools errand telling somebody that their feelings aren’t logical. Whether they’re logical or not, they still have them, and telling somebody that they shouldn’t feel a certain way has never stopped somebody from feeling that way. > > I know why other cultures use swastikas. That doesn’t make a difference to me in how seeing a swastika makes me feel. I am not aksing for the feelings to be logical, or to make sense. What annoyed me were these two sentences “I hope the education system here teaches them to hate the swastika, but if it doesn’t, I’ll make sure to do it myself”. “Not in my face and not under my roof”. Both, (to me) represent an extremely high level of bigoted behaviour. What would the reaction here be if I said that I was going to teach my daughter to hate the Star of David, becausee I hated it? Teach your children to hate genocide - sure. To revile repression, better still. To outright hate something that people consider good luck? Not acceptable. Just because the Nazis are an acceptable target of hatred doesn’t mean we should teach our children hatred. Imagine this - you are a Palestinian father. You are were a pacifist, that has never supported terrorism. One day an Israeli bulldozer comes and flattens your house, squashing your father. Is it ok for you to then teach your children hatred of Israelis? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/113 "2009-05-06T03:08:21Z")
This is a zombie thread. However, we’re going to leave this thread open for a while to see if it gets any traction. Everyone please note the dates of posts to which they respond. Picking fights with departed posters or over long-since forgotten remarks will get this thread shut down. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/114 "2009-05-06T03:55:46Z")
I think the swastika is just a really badass looking symbol. When I was a little kid, like 5 years old, I used to draw it on EVERYTHING, and I had NO idea what it meant. I just saw it somewhere, probably in Indiana Jones or some other movie with Nazis, and I thought it looked so cool that I wanted to use it wherever possible. I was in summer camp at our local YMCA at the time and on rainy days we did indoor activities, including arts and crafts. The counselor was shocked to find my watercolor painting covered in swastikas. I didn’t understand what the big deal was. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/115 "2009-05-06T04:19:01Z")
In my area of London, which really is pretty much as multicultural as you can get (Tower Hamlets and Hackney), I’ve seen the swastika used three times in artwork by teenagers and twice by adults. They (a generation or three removed) were all of the groups that the swastika symbol originally belonged to. That surprised me. But then, there are a lot of people here from the groups which have traditionally used that symbol. They’re not leaving - they’re part of the country. So I wouldn’t be so certain about the swastika taking such a long time to be reclaimed. For the US, I don’t really know. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/116 "2009-05-06T04:20:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is a zombie thread. However, we’re going to leave this thread open for a while to see if it gets any traction. > > Everyone please note the dates of posts to which they respond. Picking fights with departed posters or over long-since forgotten remarks will get this thread shut down. > > [/Modding] Apologies. I just clicked on new posts and the dates aren’t so easy to see. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/117 "2009-05-06T11:45:46Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Both, (to me) represent an extremely high level of bigoted behaviour. What would the reaction here be if I said that I was going to teach my daughter to hate the Star of David, becausee I hated it? Probably that you were an anti-semite. I’m an anti-Nazi, and the biggest Nazi symbol out there is the swastika. > [@](#): > > Imagine this - you are a Palestinian father. You are were a pacifist, that has never supported terrorism. One day an Israeli bulldozer comes and flattens your house, squashing your father. Is it ok for you to then teach your children hatred of Israelis? I’m sure that, were I in that situation, I would. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/118 "2009-05-06T19:51:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But it’s a symbol of hate in \*my \*culture. The fact that it’s only been one for 75 years or so is completely irrelevant. I don’t care who “had” it first; the only important thing is what it means to me now. > > Look, if they want to continue revering the swastika, they can live and be well. I can’t stop them from doing it, but I also can’t stop myself from reacting to it. I’m not going to stop hating it. Their culture does not take precedence over mine. > > As to why I want to hate it? > > To remember, of course. If we forget the meaning of the swastika, sooner or later we’ll forget those who marched under it, and what they did. I don’t intend that to happen. When I see a swastika, the original version, I see another victim of Nazi hate and fearmongering. I feel pity for how the Nazis co-opted and debased what was formerly a symbol of luck and hope, just as I feel pity for the lives they destroyed. I don’t forget the Nazis, or what they did. But I see the swastika as something they tried to destroy, just as they tried to destroy the Roma, Jews, atheists, homosexuals, etc. If those other victims of the Nazis can stand up and demand they not be defined by the way the Nazis used/abused them, why can’t the swastika? Just as those other targets of Nazi hate should not allow their culture and their actions to be defined by those who attempted to exterminate them, the swastika should not have to hide. It was not responsible for the actions of those who wore it on their uniforms. Those who use it differently should not be judged by the way the Nazis use it any more than a Roma/Jew/atheist/homosexual/etc. should have to justify to everyone why they aren’t cockroaches, as the Nazis portrayed them. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/119 "2009-05-06T19:55:22Z")
Sorry, didn’t notice this was a zombie. I guess we have at least a partial answer for the OP, “more than a year.” Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/120 "2009-05-06T22:41:51Z")
Dude, it’s a bunch of lines, not a person. It doesn’t have any feelings to hurt. It’s a symbol - a word. Would you prefer that there be no words for evil things? No word for “war”, no word for “pain,” no word for “death”? No word for “Nazi”? Kinda Orwellian, don’t you think? Myself, I think there should be words that mean bad things. There are bad things in the world, and pretending they don’t exist won’t make them go away. Giving them names gives us somthing to fight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592.md?page=7)