# When will the swastika be freed of Nazi associations? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592 "2008-02-14T14:41:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/121 "2009-05-07T19:16:12Z")
It is a bunch of lines. So why do you hate it? If someone dressed up in fuchsia-colored clothes and beat me senseless, would it be rational for me to hate the color fuchsia? We have words for evil, as we should. Nazi is a pretty good example. Genocide is another. Swastika is more like fuchsia. It was associated with evil, but hating it is [displacement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_(psychology)). What you hate, as you should, is the evil those men/women committed and them for doing it. What they wore while doing it is ancillary, at best. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/122 "2009-05-08T04:01:48Z")
Within just three blocks of my apartment are three buddhist temples, storefront outfits really. Walking a few blocks more and I will pass even more. Each and every one of them is flying a white pennant with a swastika. Some of them also have the swasika painted or carved into the building. Seems to me that it’s never lost its earlier meaning here. ---
**Author:** ![mallurox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@mallurox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mallurox)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/123 "2009-05-08T05:52:10Z")
I was reading this thread a couple of days before and when i went home, my wife had drawn up a ‘kolam’ outside our apartment. A kolam is something like [this](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Bai_Athai%27s_Kolam.jpg/800px-Bai_Athai%27s_Kolam.jpg). Usually drawn early in the morning, it can be thought of as a good luck or prosperity symbol. Sure enough the center piece of the kolam was a swastik [\<- thats how we pronounce it]. The symbol is not the same as the Nazi swastika, the angles and the demeanour are different. In India we are not having a debate on how to reclaim the swastik, because that debate does not exist. **Alessan** -if you came to India, i assure you that you would not flinch away from temples or houses or restaurants. It would seem in context, and you may hardly take note of it. What i guess i am trying to say is - everything in context. What it might mean in one context may not be applicable to another. In any case the swastik needs no help in ‘reclaiming’ its meaning. The Nazi swastika on the other hand must always be associated with that particular organisation. With a little bit of insight it is very easy to differentiate the two. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/124 "2009-05-08T06:07:43Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’ve spent plenty of time in “teh East”, and yeah, I see swastikas every day. It really means nothing here. And I think that as our cultures become closer we will get used to it in the West. Really, you get over the shock once you’ve seen a couple temples covered in swastikas. I have seen Buddhit temples in Japan and Jewish temples in the US with swastikas. I invite you to the Jewish temples to learn and then see if you are stil not aware of the difference. As for the others, I bet most have not seen what they are arguing. > [@](#): > > The other is that I’m against the essentializing of WWII (or any historical event, really.) When we focus on this time period, we need to focus on the real people and events, not the symbols and stereotypes. We can’t make the holocaust into a fairy tale of pure good and pure evil. Because then it will stop being real to us. Then maybe you ought to visit your local synagogue and ask real people about it. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/125 "2009-05-08T06:10:12Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > When I see a swastika, the original version, I see another victim of Nazi hate and fearmongering. > -SNIPPED- > Those who use it differently should not be judged by the way the Nazis use it any more than a Roma/Jew/atheist/homosexual/etc. should have to justify to everyone why they aren’t cockroaches, as the Nazis portrayed them. I just wanted to say, I really did enjoy this thought, Steven. Thank you for it. I like your thought, but I also agree with mallurox as well, in that when I see it, I associate it with the context it’s presented in. So if I see an Indian Swastika, I don’t even think of the Nazi symbol. And when I see the Nazi Swastika emblems, I don’t associate it with the Hindu symbols either. To me, they’re very different things by their context, and as much as I like the idea of feeling pity for that symbol, I also feel that perhaps somethings should be left alone. Let the Nazi Image stay as it were, as a reminder of the terrible evil that man can do. But I also like the fact that the symbol can be a sign of hope and good wishes for many others. It’s a very Yin and Yang thing, which goes quite well in the Hindu philosophy. It’s a sign of good and a sign of terrible evil, and based on the context provided, it is up to us as human beings to allow it to color our perceptions and feelings as we see fit. However, we should not give in to extremism of either kind- to be so dismissive of it would be foolish and yet, to associate it with nothing but evil in ALL it’s forms is also incorrect and shows nothing but extremism begetting more extremism. It’s up to us as human beings be able to discern the context and the meaning of it. If it is presented ambiguously then sure, I suppose you have to rely on your past dealings with the symbol as you see fit, but if you can discern the context of how the person who has the symbol is portraying it, then it would be rude and dismissive to simply ignore that one and focus only on the extreme perversion aspect of it. That’s why I like your comments, Steven. It has been pushed down and perverted- and to allow that to be the only thing which we see it as would be to purposefully cover our own eyes from the world around us. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/126 "2009-05-08T06:14:05Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Both, (to me) represent an extremely high level of bigoted behaviour. What would the reaction here be if I said that I was going to teach my daughter to hate the Star of David, becausee I hated it? You’d be an ass. On the other hand, if the symbol represented 12 million dead by execution in 10 years or so, then you would be a wise man. > [@](#): > > Just because the Nazis are an acceptable target of hatred doesn’t mean we should teach our children hatred. Yeah, teach your kids to love nazis. Progeny like that have terrorized Jews in my California town as recently as last year. You seem to think the symbol hasn’t been in active use for the stated purpose since 1945. You couldn’t be more wrong. > [@](#): > > Imagine this - you are a Palestinian father. You are were a pacifist, that has never supported terrorism. One day an Israeli bulldozer comes and flattens your house, squashing your father. Is it ok for you to then teach your children hatred of Israelis? I thought that might be where this was going…Palestinians teach their kids to hate Israelis and Jews as a matter of course, without provocation, IMU. In part because people like you are apologists for Nazis and their “brand”, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/127 "2009-05-08T06:18:25Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > It is a bunch of lines. So why do you hate it? If someone dressed up in fuchsia-colored clothes and beat me senseless, would it be rational for me to hate the color fuchsia? > > We have words for evil, as we should. Nazi is a pretty good example. Genocide is another. Swastika is more like fuchsia. It was associated with evil, but hating it is [displacement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_(psychology)). What you hate, as you should, is the evil those men/women committed and them for doing it. What they wore while doing it is ancillary, at best. > > Enjoy, > Steven How would YOU brand the remembrance of the evil? The actual logo chosen by the evil-doers seems to be doing a great job. No one really gets it mixed up with similar symbols in the East or South Asia. So how would YOU do it? ---
**Author:** ![mallurox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@mallurox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mallurox)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/128 "2009-05-08T06:30:46Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > \< snip\> > I thought that might be where this was going…Palestinians teach their kids to hate Israelis and Jews as a matter of course, without provocation, IMU. In part because people like you are apologists for Nazis and their “brand”, IMHO. **not\_alice** - i have no dog in this debate, but this in particular is a touch mad. A hypothetical pacifist Palestinian man has his house bulldozed, he teaches his kids to hate Israel, the kids grow up to be Fidayeen and attack Israel - in retaliation another Palestinian’s house is bulldozed .. cycle continues. I am not suggesting Israel should take everything lying down. But hate begets hate and there is no solution in that. That way lies madness. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/129 "2009-05-08T06:59:15Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > You’d be an ass. > > On the other hand, if the symbol represented 12 million dead by execution in 10 years or so, then you would be a wise man. > > . You could equally argue that GERMANS represent 12 million dead by execution - is that ok? > [@not\_alice](#): > > Yeah, teach your kids to love nazis. Progeny like that have terrorized Jews in my California town as recently as last year. You seem to think the symbol hasn’t been in active use for the stated purpose since 1945. You couldn’t be more wrong. > > . Or I could teach my child to hate bigotry of any kind. Kind of like what I am doing? Teach her to hate bullies of any stripe. Teach her to look at both sides of an argument and determine the full history before she condemns anybody? Wouldn’t theat be a little better? And actually considering that I am a “white guy” who is married to a “chink” you think I have never before faced the racial slurs of the neo nazi crowd? And you think my wife has also never faced the reverse racism of all sorts that comes from marrying outside your own specific culture? > [@not\_alice](#): > > I thought that might be where this was going…Palestinians teach their kids to hate Israelis and Jews as a matter of course, without provocation, IMU. In part because people like you are apologists for Nazis and their “brand”, IMHO Where do you get that I am some sort of apologist? In fact the more power we can take away from them the happier I am, and the reformation of the swastika is one way of doing that. Yes, some Palestinians do teach their kids to hate as a matter of course, and I condemn that just as much as anything else. WANTING to hate, and wanting to take offense just perpetuates the cycle. Automatically assuming that a swastika is evil gives “the nazi symbol” and by extension anyone using it as a symbol of hate, more power than either of them deserve. If we can deliberately take some of that power from them, why shouldn’t we? After all, its not like I am randomly trying to change the meaning of somebody’s logo. The swastika has a long long history of “positive vibes” before being appropriated by the Nazis. Woudln’t it be cool to reclaim that and leave the “Nazi Flag” as a side note and testiment to the stupidity of the regime? In reality, I know that the swastika is always going to be in some way associated with Nazis, it would be good though if we could reach the level where it is not automatically assumed that any viewing of it will cause offense, or that having one on your house brands you as a Nazi ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/130 "2009-05-08T07:05:29Z")
> [@Ro0sh](#): > > I just wanted to say, I really did enjoy this thought, Steven. Thank you for it. > I like your thought, but I also agree with mallurox as well, in that when I see it, I associate it with the context it’s presented in. So if I see an Indian Swastika, I don’t even think of the Nazi symbol. And when I see the Nazi Swastika emblems, I don’t associate it with the Hindu symbols either. To me, they’re very different things by their context, and as much as I like the idea of feeling pity for that symbol, I also feel that perhaps somethings should be left alone. Let the Nazi Image stay as it were, as a reminder of the terrible evil that man can do. But I also like the fact that the symbol can be a sign of hope and good wishes for many others. It’s a very Yin and Yang thing, which goes quite well in the Hindu philosophy. It’s a sign of good and a sign of terrible evil, and based on the context provided, it is up to us as human beings to allow it to color our perceptions and feelings as we see fit. > However, we should not give in to extremism of either kind- to be so dismissive of it would be foolish and yet, to associate it with nothing but evil in ALL it’s forms is also incorrect and shows nothing but extremism begetting more extremism. > > It’s up to us as human beings be able to discern the context and the meaning of it. If it is presented ambiguously then sure, I suppose you have to rely on your past dealings with the symbol as you see fit, but if you can discern the context of how the person who has the symbol is portraying it, then it would be rude and dismissive to simply ignore that one and focus only on the extreme perversion aspect of it. That’s why I like your comments, Steven. It has been pushed down and perverted- and to allow that to be the only thing which we see it as would be to purposefully cover our own eyes from the world around us. Thank you. You have made the point far more eloquently than I have been able to ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/131 "2009-05-08T07:07:34Z")
Heck, once the worshipers of Indiana Jones consolidate their power, swastikas will be icons of fear by law. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/132 "2009-05-08T19:27:10Z")
> [@Ro0sh](#): > > So if I see an Indian Swastika, I don’t even think of the Nazi symbol. And when I see the Nazi Swastika emblems, I don’t associate it with the Hindu symbols either. To me, they’re very different things by their context, and as much as I like the idea of feeling pity for that symbol, I also feel that perhaps somethings should be left alone. Let the Nazi Image stay as it were, as a reminder of the terrible evil that man can do. But I also like the fact that the symbol can be a sign of hope and good wishes for many others. It’s a very Yin and Yang thing, which goes quite well in the Hindu philosophy. It’s a sign of good and a sign of terrible evil, and based on the context provided, it is up to us as human beings to allow it to color our perceptions and feelings as we see fit. > However, we should not give in to extremism of either kind- to be so dismissive of it would be foolish and yet, to associate it with nothing but evil in ALL it’s forms is also incorrect and shows nothing but extremism begetting more extremism. Thanks **Ro0sh** , I think we’re pretty much in agreement about there being no one right way to view a swastika. Not only do they come in many forms and in many contexts, but they are filtered through our own cultural lenses. Allowing the Nazi’s to define how you see the world, especially things which existed before, and independently, of them would seem to be allowing them space in your head rent-free. The people displaying the traditional swastika don’t deserve to be saddled with the Nazi baggage, but people displaying the Nazi swastika(such as neo-Nazis) should. As with far too many debates we are probably talking past each other by abstracting the multitudes of ways of constructing swastikas and the contexts in which they’re used into an abstract of “the swastika” wherein all the feelings we all have about all the swastikas we’ve encountered start conflicting. If we were all standing around and looking at pictures of swastikas in different contexts instead of just the black and white words, most of the conflicts in this thread probably would never have materialized. > [@not\_alice](#): > > How would YOU brand the remembrance of the evil? The actual logo chosen by the evil-doers seems to be doing a great job. No one really gets it mixed up with similar symbols in the East or South Asia. > > So how would YOU do it? Preferably with something which uniquely identifies the evil in question. “Nazi” pretty much has no other meanings, so if I’m referring to the evil the Nazis committed, I’d brand it as “Nazi”. If I needed an image I could pick the Nazi flag because it’s different enough from most other swastikas to not be confused by most people familiar with WWII. I wouldn’t just say “those guys who wore swastikas” because that would be ambiguous in contexts like this one. Although harmless enough in the real world where context is king, it’s not so easy here, and cyberspace seems to be the community of the future. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592/133 "2009-05-08T20:28:14Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > The symbol is still widely used as a benign symbol throughout south and east Asia. Indeed. In Japan it’s the official map symbol for Buddhist temples (full list [here](http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9C%B0%E5%9B%B3%E8%A8%98%E5%8F%B7%E3%81%AE%E4%B8%80%E8%A6%A7)). It’s not exactly the same symbol though, it’s mirror image and rotated 45 degrees. I’d think that’s a clear enough difference that one can remain associated with the Nazi while the other is understood to be a Buddhist symbol. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-the-swastika-be-freed-of-nazi-associations/437592.md?page=6)