# When will white, christian moderates speak up? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 24, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895 "2015-03-24T21:10:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/181 "2015-03-26T15:50:50Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Holy shit how dumb are you? Not only did you miss the obvious sarcasm of the first poet you quoted… (post shortened) Holy shit, I have no idea what you MEANT to say. I assumed you weren’t shoveling horseshit when you declared yourself to be an extremist atheist. If you don’t like Inhofe’s popular opinions, you always have the option of running against him. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/182 "2015-03-26T15:54:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you see him as one? I see no reason to disagree with him. Live and let live, I say. If he wants to be an extremist atheist, he can be an extremist atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/183 "2015-03-26T15:56:01Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Holy shit, I have no idea what you MEANT to say. I assumed you weren’t shoveling horseshit when you declared yourself to be an extremist atheist. > > If you don’t like Inhofe’s popular opinions, you always have the option of running against him. Good luck. Is that how you judge what he says-by how popular he is? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/184 "2015-03-26T15:59:32Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I see no reason to disagree with him. Live and let live, I say. If he wants to be an extremist atheist, he can be an extremist atheist. So you agree with the rest of what he says, right? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/185 "2015-03-26T16:18:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is that how you judge what he says-by how popular he is? No. He disagrees with Inhofe’s position and attempted to hijack this thread with global warming, and some other stuff. Yawn. I suggest that if **SenorBeef** wants to overrule Inhofe’s positions, then he try to replace Inhofe. In his spare time, maybe **SenorBeef** could provide Inhofe’s position on the racist insinuation that white, Christian moderates should speak up concerning Robertson’s statements, but red, yellow, brown, and black Christian need not apply? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/186 "2015-03-26T16:21:09Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Wait, so, it’s cool that atheists are maligned and hated like other groups are? Would you say this same thing to Jews that were complaining of systematic mistreatment in Germany in the 1930s? So an atheist on a message board being told not to be a dick is as bad as the holocaust? You are worse than Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/187 "2015-03-26T16:32:00Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > So an atheist on a message board being told not to be a dick is as bad as the holocaust? You are worse than Hitler. Are there any atheists on this board you _don’t_ consider to be dicks? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/188 "2015-03-26T16:35:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are there any atheists on this board you _don’t_ consider to be dicks? The women? Oh, wait, I misread your question. Never mind. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/189 "2015-03-26T16:37:38Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > The women? Oh, wait, I misread your question. Never mind. Carry on. Followup question: Would you consider yourself to be a Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/190 "2015-03-26T16:41:41Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Also the folks at Sojourners Magazine: [Sojourners Magazine | Sojourners](http://sojo.net/magazine) I part company here. Fundamentalists Christians out-organized mainliners back in the 1970s. Moderate and leftist Christians need to take responsibility for their decision to effectively sit on their hands. They can’t or at least shouldn’t blame the media: they need to take ownership of their behavior. That’s what this is about, isn’t it? Moderate Christians want to be inclusive of conservatives within their own churches, so they won’t rock the boat too much. Fundamentalist evangelicals, OTOH, don’t have a problem with being loud and obnoxious: they even claim that those who don’t accept their squirrely beliefs aren’t really Christian. > > Moderate and Leftish Christians have basically ceded the debate to the nutters, the Catholic Church excepted. I say they have a problem on their hands, if they care. > > In some ways this is a bit of puzzle. I mean hard right Christians are basically walking glass houses: it shouldn’t be too difficult to lay down the smack. And if that’s insufficiently Christian (as it is in some traditional sense) then a viable alternative would be to repeatedly denounce certain Reverend’s _behaviors_ as unchristian, without denying their sincere faith. That’s one approach anyway. What part of ordaining gays, and now performing gay marriages is sitting on our hands? We are NOT accommodating the conservatives in our church - we have changed, and they are stuck either leaving or dealing with it themselves. We laid down the smack, as you put it. When the PCUSA voted VERY recently - that was laying down the smack. That has made more news than Phil Robertson - check the links I posted earlier in this thread - just look for the rainbow flags. Our goal is bring more people to Christ. Going on the attack does not convert in my experience. Screaming does not bring more people into the congregation. Going out and doing the Lord’s work, however, DOES help. If I am to go after people, I would be attacking Dawkins, Jews, Muslims, Catholics (if I really want to reflect the Reform church movement) and certain fundamentalist Christians. How many will I bring to Christ? How much better will I make the world? What will I accomplish in this? Will the atheists of the Dope suddenly accompany me to church and give it a try if I start screaming that Phil Robertson is an idiot with no understanding of the message of Christ’s love? Is THAT what keeps your from church? Because you seem to be the only ones upset that we aren’t having an MWC jihad against the Duck Dynasty clowns. I am willing to wager that our congregation will get a bump of 5 - 10% in membership and donations if the press picks up our first gay marriage ceremony. THAT will show people that there are other perspectives. I base that on the uptick we got after one of our sessions with the local Iman and Rabbi on global peace. Again - people who had walked away from church picked up on our message of openness and intellectual discussion and decided to give it a try. Demonstrating our faith and culture in that open fashion has been very effective for us in growing our congregation. For a deeper perspective, here is a statement from our minister upon the death of Fred Phelps: > [@](#): > > So now Phelps has died, and people of faith and good will wonder how to respond. Do we celebrate? Do we protest his funeral? Do we conjecture that he is hell-bound? Should we line his funeral procession with rainbow flags and “God Hates Haters!” posters? While there is something deliciously tempting in all of those responses, they would show us to be more like Phelps than different. > > In the end, maybe the death of a jackal during the season of Lent is timely. During Lent, we reflect on our brokenness, including our reactions to Phelps’ death. As long as we encounter his hate with our hate, the only real difference between Phelps and ourselves are some layers of propriety and decency that he was willing to shed and we are not. > > But if we confess that we too have such trust in hate, then the long, slow process of transformation begins, where love overcomes hate and good overcomes evil. _Note - I am fully aware that with this and my location you can find my congregation. I welcome you - but note that I am just a member. I do not speak for my church in any official capacity, but if you want to join me - pm me. (sorry about the witnessing in the Pit - but it seemed appropriate)._ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/191 "2015-03-26T16:48:40Z")
**Algher** , why do you keep using the word “screaming”? No one has brought up “screaming”, no one is asking you to “scream”, and(believe it or not) there are ways to make a presence in the media that do not involve “screaming”. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/192 "2015-03-26T16:54:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > **Algher** , why do you keep using the word “screaming”? No one has brought up “screaming”, no one is asking you to “scream”, and(believe it or not) there are ways to make a presence in the media that do not involve “screaming”. That felt like that was what was requested - to fight fire with fire. Again though - what would you like the MWCs to do, and how would that accomplish our goals? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/193 "2015-03-26T17:10:44Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > That felt like that was what was requested - to fight fire with fire. Again though - what would you like the MWCs to do, and how would that accomplish our goals? 1. I would dearly love to see that list of MC leaders that **Guin** says have already spoken up. 2. When some far-right church demagogue gets national airtime claiming to speak for all Christians, it wouldn’t hurt if MC leaders made an effort to contact the largest media they have access to in their area to ask for equal time. Not making the effort and saying Why bother-they wouldn’t let us get on the air anyway" is something I have no respect for. If and when airtime refusal _actually_ happens, you follow up with press releases that contain the news that you were refused equal access, _and_ the original message you were going to put out…no screaming involved, of course. By the way, “fighting fire with fire” doesn’t mean battling an out of control wildfire by setting off another out of control wildfire. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/194 "2015-03-26T17:20:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. I would dearly love to see that list of MC leaders that **Guin** says have already spoken up. > 2. When some far-right church demagogue gets national airtime claiming to speak for all Christians, it wouldn’t hurt if MC leaders made an effort to contact the largest media they have access to in their area to ask for equal time. Not making the effort and saying Why bother-they wouldn’t let us get on the air anyway" is something I have no respect for. If and when airtime refusal _actually_ happens, you follow up with press releases that contain the news that you were refused equal access, _and_ the original message you were going to put out…no screaming involved, of course. > > By the way, “fighting fire with fire” doesn’t mean battling an out of control wildfire by setting off another out of control wildfire. I have never seen Phil Robertson claim to speak for all Christians. The quote that started this thread was at a prayer breakfast in Florida. The story was not on any of the major online news channels except Fox. Sojourners (more of a progressive Christian group than moderate IMHO) had this to say about Phil the last time he hit the news: [Phil Robertson | Sojourners](http://sojo.net/tag/phil-robertson) Here is what the PCUSA has had to say about him: > **[Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) - Events](https://www.pcusa.org/search/?criteria=phil%2Brobertson)** > > The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has more than 1.7 million members in more than 10,000 congregations and worshiping communities answering Christ's call to mission and ministry throughout the United States and the world. Six agencies comprise... I also already quoted what our small congregation had to say about Phelps (another demagogue who embarrassed most Christians). Plenty of Christians also supported funerals, et all when Westboro showed up. That sometimes made the news depending on your source. So, once again, we ARE speaking up. But because we don’t make incendiary statements - it just is not that interesting. This is more of an issue with the nature of news than our actions. Don’t hate the player, hate the game. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/195 "2015-03-26T17:33:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > …By the way, “fighting fire with fire” doesn’t mean battling an out of control wildfire by setting off another out of control wildfire. (post shortened) Actually, that’s exactly what it means. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/196 "2015-03-26T18:19:25Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > So, once again, we ARE speaking up. But because we don’t make incendiary statements - it just is not that interesting. This is more of an issue with the nature of news than our actions. > > Don’t hate the player, hate the game. Very true. And I have to applaud you for all your posts on this thread. Part of what us mainliners believe is that Christ’s demand that we love others should triumph over all. So while we may want to shout and rage and be incendiary, that is actually the worst way of going about it - since it convinces no one and makes folks more intransigent. So we speak out for love. My ELCA congregation had a gay pastor for 12 years (he’s now at a bigger church in Minnesota - Lutheran Disneyland) - we were one of the many congregations involved in getting the ELCA policy on homosexual pastors changed. We walked the walk - we didn’t go all fire and brimstone on those who opposed us, we reached out with love, attempting to show the love and humility of Christ with the faith that it would reach those who were opposed - and in a lot of cases it did (we have folks who really were against even calling a gay pastor back in 2000 who are now some of the biggest supporters for gay rights). ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/197 "2015-03-26T19:13:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Followup question: Would you consider yourself to be a Christian? Yes, I would consider myself to be a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/198 "2015-03-26T19:23:22Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Yes, I would consider myself to be a Christian. How are humility and turning the other cheek working for you? Have you tried them recently? A lot of times I don’t bother trying to point this kind of thing out, for obvious reasons. However, you’re asking for it with this post. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/199 "2015-03-26T19:40:32Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > How are humility and turning the other cheek working for you? Have you tried them recently? > > A lot of times I don’t bother trying to point this kind of thing out, for obvious reasons. However, you’re asking for it with this post. Hahahaha. Turning the other cheek? Are you threatening to strike me? Beat me about the head and shoulders, maybe? Hurt my feelings? How absolutely atheist of you, you great big keyboard bully. I’m glad you “bothered” to make this post. It made my day. Thanx. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/200 "2015-03-26T19:42:24Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > How are humility and turning the other cheek working for you? Have you tried them recently? May I point out the irony of asking about this, yet wanting moderate Christians to publicly speak out against others? (maybe not you in particular, but the competing impulses here - be like conservative Christians when you disagree with them, but be meek and mild when disagreeing with everyone else - it’s enough to give one whiplash) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895.md?page=11)