# When will white, christian moderates speak up? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 24, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895 "2015-03-24T21:10:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/81 "2015-03-25T15:32:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s part of Mr. Robertson’s point - yes, you do believe in a mythology that has no evidence to support it - namely, the mythology that there is there is such a thing as a demonstrable moral standard. > > There is, in other words, no objective evidence that rape and murder are “wrong”. It is purely subjective - an axiom that has to be accepted on faith, just like you say theists accept the reality of God. You “know” that rape and murder are wrong in the same way that theists “know” of the reality of God. You take it on faith. > > Regards, > Shodan According to this brilliant piece of logic, it is OK to molest children. Because, the bible does not prohibit it. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/82 "2015-03-25T15:46:55Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I suppose the difference is that asking moderate Christians to denounce _hypothetical_ violence is not quite the same as asking moderate Muslims to denounce an endless stream of _actual_ violence. Hush you. Don’t interrupt the atheist liberal circle jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/83 "2015-03-25T15:51:16Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Hush you. Don’t interrupt the atheist liberal circle jerk. If there was a “hypothetical” story about a christian family getting raped, murdered, beheaded and having genitals cut off christians would be enraged. And properly so. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/84 "2015-03-25T15:55:38Z")
How much did the media pick up the story that the Presbyterian Church USA will now not only ordain gays and lesbians, but will also perform marriages for them? That was our way of being “loud” - we did the right thing. Will that get us invited to a prayer breakfast with the Republicans OR the Democrats? I have no idea. We get a new Moderator every few years, and we don’t have a single well known spokesperson for our particular branch of Christianity. Put simply - we don’t yell and scream. That just is not our way. We pray in private. We help others. Our church is in a huge split right now, as more “conservative” congregations leave the PCUSA due to our movement. We don’t yell at them either. We consider them to be the prodigal son leaving with the inheritance, and we pray they will come back someday. We will welcome them back. After 20 or more committee meetings first, though. We ARE Presbyterians, and we need our committee meetings. It took until the 1980s to get the breakaway churches of the Old South to come back into the fold, for example. It will take a few generations to bring back the conservative congregations as well. Here is the thing - we are in this for the long haul. Now - could we do more marketing? Yes, but complex messaging does not lend itself to bullet point marketing or attention. If we are going to scream (in our quiet, bundt cake fashion), it will be about prison conditions, programs for the homeless, education, health care, and other ways that our nation does not serve its people. We are the ones at the soup kitchen, fighting sex trafficking, opening our homes and pantries, etc. I was helping build houses after Katrina, re-wiring homes. I didn’t wave a flag, though I did have “Presbyterian Disaster Assistance” T-shirt on. Nobody from the media cared. But I didn’t do it for the media attention - I did it because that was the right thing to do, and my church provided a way to do it. I have a limited amount of time - shall I spend it on making a press release about how Robertson is an idiot, or shall I spend it serving others? I choose to serve others. ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/85 "2015-03-25T15:56:23Z")
Wow. This kinda blew up over night. I originally posted this in a fit of pique, because as an atheist, I was put off by this clown’s words, and the ham-handed way he was trying to get his point across. I also was poking fun at the “Why don’t moderate Muslims speak out” crowd. I do believe that language like this should be pointed and laughed at, I don’t think Mr. Robertson is necessarily capable of acting on this sick fantasy, he’s just pandering to the crowd. I do think the people who listen, nod, and applaud him do have that capability. You can only call someone “Tiller the Baby Killer” so many times before some nutcase decides to shoot him in his own house of worship. This guy is free to say whatever he wants a a prayer breakfast. I’m free to mock him, and those who agree with him. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/86 "2015-03-25T16:00:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Ok, ummm… I’ve not had much sleep, like 5 or 6 hours in the last 48 hours. I’m just going to go ahead and apologize to Bricker for trying to paint him as being a negative person. I think you’re still missing the point. Argument that relies on what kind of person makes the point is yet another logical fallacy: the _ad hominem_ fallacy. I’m a negative person: the glass is half-empty, the lottery winnigs are taxed, and the scotch is all blended. OK? Now, what if anything does that do to the accuracy of my observations? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/87 "2015-03-25T16:08:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s part of Mr. Robertson’s point - yes, you do believe in a mythology that has no evidence to support it - namely, the mythology that there is there is such a thing as a demonstrable moral standard. > > There is, in other words, no objective evidence that rape and murder are “wrong”. It is purely subjective - an axiom that has to be accepted on faith, just like you say theists accept the reality of God. You “know” that rape and murder are wrong in the same way that theists “know” of the reality of God. You take it on faith. This thread should be crow-free for years, what with the multitude of strawmen stumbling about. I am of course not the best spokesperson for atheism, but I would venture to say that your statement is a strawman of the atheist position. There is plenty of objective evidence for the proposition that rape and murder are wrong without requiring that one accept the existence of a supernatural supreme being. At a basic level, to pick a single example, an atheist could adopt the golden rule that peaceful society requires a societal contract to avoid mayhem, and a breach of that contract incites other breaches. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/88 "2015-03-25T16:09:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s part of Mr. Robertson’s point - yes, you do believe in a mythology that has no evidence to support it - namely, the mythology that there is there is such a thing as a demonstrable moral standard. > > There is, in other words, no objective evidence that rape and murder are “wrong”. It is purely subjective - an axiom that has to be accepted on faith, just like you say theists accept the reality of God. You “know” that rape and murder are wrong in the same way that theists “know” of the reality of God. You take it on faith. > > Regards, > Shodan I’m against rape and murder, because rape and murder harms people. Since evolution installed (most) humans with a strong empathic sense, when I see people being harmed, I feel bad. I don’t like to feel bad. So, I oppose people being raped and murdered. Not sure where the “faith” part comes into that. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/89 "2015-03-25T16:09:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think you’re still missing the point. Argument that relies on what kind of person makes the point is yet another logical fallacy: the _ad hominem_ fallacy. I’m a negative person: the glass is half-empty, the lottery winnigs are taxed, and the scotch is all blended. OK? > > Now, what if anything does that do to the accuracy of my observations? My problem is not what kind of person said it. I would have the same reaction to a smug, condescending story about a family that got raped, murdered, beheaded, and had genitals cut off… the story is equally offensive no matter who tells it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/90 "2015-03-25T16:17:03Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > My problem is not what kind of person said it. I would have the same reaction to a smug, condescending story about a family that got raped, murdered, beheaded, and had genitals cut off… the story is equally offensive no matter who tells it. Apparently it wasn’t too offensive to the hundreds of Christians that listened to it at that annual prayer breakfast, and it wasn’t too offensive for a Christian national radio network to promote and rebroadcast. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/91 "2015-03-25T16:26:34Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > How much did the media pick up the story that the Presbyterian Church USA will now not only ordain gays and lesbians, but will also perform marriages for them? That was our way of being “loud” - we did the right thing. Will that get us invited to a prayer breakfast with the Republicans OR the Democrats? I have no idea. We get a new Moderator every few years, and we don’t have a single well known spokesperson for our particular branch of Christianity. > > Put simply - we don’t yell and scream. That just is not our way. We pray in private. We help others. Our church is in a huge split right now, as more “conservative” congregations leave the PCUSA due to our movement. We don’t yell at them either. We consider them to be the prodigal son leaving with the inheritance, and we pray they will come back someday. We will welcome them back. > > After 20 or more committee meetings first, though. We ARE Presbyterians, and we need our committee meetings. It took until the 1980s to get the breakaway churches of the Old South to come back into the fold, for example. It will take a few generations to bring back the conservative congregations as well. > > Here is the thing - we are in this for the long haul. > > Now - could we do more marketing? Yes, but complex messaging does not lend itself to bullet point marketing or attention. If we are going to scream (in our quiet, bundt cake fashion), it will be about prison conditions, programs for the homeless, education, health care, and other ways that our nation does not serve its people. We are the ones at the soup kitchen, fighting sex trafficking, opening our homes and pantries, etc. > > I was helping build houses after Katrina, re-wiring homes. I didn’t wave a flag, though I did have “Presbyterian Disaster Assistance” T-shirt on. Nobody from the media cared. But I didn’t do it for the media attention - I did it because that was the right thing to do, and my church provided a way to do it. > > I have a limited amount of time - shall I spend it on making a press release about how Robertson is an idiot, or shall I spend it serving others? I choose to serve others. China and the USA are the major contributors to global warming. So people from other countries or people in the future could criticize me for not standing up and putting a stop to it. Now, realistically, the actions of one person is not going to change anything, at least not 99.999999999% of the time. In reality, there is only so much you can do and you are often too busy to do anything. Too busy given that the world has 1000 problems and there are only 24 hours in the day and you have your own life to live. BUT The other side of the coin is that if I do nothing to stop global warming then I am, by definition, part of the problem and therefor THE problem. Just as much as it is true that one person will not change anything, it is equally true and even more important that if nobody does anything nothing will ever change. I do, of course, applaud your good deeds but that is kind of a separate category from speaking out. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/92 "2015-03-25T16:28:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Apparently it wasn’t too offensive to the hundreds of Christians that listened to it at that annual prayer breakfast, and it wasn’t too offensive for a Christian national radio network to promote and rebroadcast. I bet if they heard the “hypothetical” story had happened to a Christian family they would be very upset… ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/93 "2015-03-25T16:29:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Apparently it wasn’t too offensive to the hundreds of Christians that listened to it at that annual prayer breakfast, and it wasn’t too offensive for a Christian national radio network to promote and rebroadcast. How do you know how the audience felt about his message? I attended services with my sister-in-law last year on the Sunday before Christmas. She attends one of the mega-churches in her town. I found the sermon to go against my personal faith, to be barely rooted in Biblical teaching, and it went against much of what I believe in. I didn’t fill out a survey however. A review of that sermon would not reveal my discomfort - and more than a few hundred attended. I am sure that I am not the only one who had issues with it. As for the re-broadcast - Robertson owns that network, doesn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/94 "2015-03-25T16:34:54Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > Wow. This kinda blew up over night. > > I originally posted this in a fit of pique, because as an atheist, I was put off by this clown’s words, and the ham-handed way he was trying to get his point across. I also was poking fun at the “Why don’t moderate Muslims speak out” crowd. > > I do believe that language like this should be pointed and laughed at, I don’t think Mr. Robertson is necessarily capable of acting on this sick fantasy, he’s just pandering to the crowd. I do think the people who listen, nod, and applaud him do have that capability. You can only call someone “Tiller the Baby Killer” so many times before some nutcase decides to shoot him in his own house of worship. > > This guy is free to say whatever he wants a a prayer breakfast. I’m free to mock him, and those who agree with him. > [@yanceylebeef](#): > > When will white, christian moderates speak up? > > The head of the Robertson clan [opened his word](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/phil-robertson-rape-murder-atheists) hole again. > > When will moderate Christians speak up and denounce this kind of rhetoric as the dangerous violence inciting speech that it is? By staying silent, you are giving implicit approval to the psychopathic ramblings of a man not encumbered by insight or functioning brain cells. I do believe that language like this should be pointed and laughed at. If you want to denounce Robertson, go right ahead. But you expect others to follow your lead. Why should they? Robertson doesn’t speak for all white, Christian moderates. Robertson doesn’t even speak for all Christian moderates, but I did notice you specified _white_. I reject your idea that I’ve given implicit approval to Robertson, or anyone else, simply because I chose to ignore Robertson. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/95 "2015-03-25T16:37:22Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > China and the USA are the major contributors to global warming. So people from other countries or people in the future could criticize me for not standing up and putting a stop to it. Now, realistically, the actions of one person is not going to change anything, at least not 99.999999999% of the time. In reality, there is only so much you can do and you are often too busy to do anything. Too busy given that the world has 1000 problems and there are only 24 hours in the day and you have your own life to live. > > BUT > > The other side of the coin is that if I do nothing to stop global warming then I am, by definition, part of the problem and therefor THE problem. Just as much as it is true that one person will not change anything, it is equally true and even more important that if nobody does anything nothing will ever change. > > I do, of course, applaud your good deeds but that is kind of a separate category from speaking out. Good deeds are what we do. That whole hymn of “they will know we are Christians by our love.” What would you like us to do? Shall we start a religious war? An online flame war? Maybe toss something up on message boards? Buy a billboard calling out Robertson? Seriously - what will that accomplish? What will it cost? What is the ROI? If I am going to spend my church’s resources on calling out all of the stupidity done in Christ’s name (and deal with attacks that will occur on my congregation when we do it) - that will result in fewer abilities to do good work. It would be a full-time job for a fully staffed church office. As it is, our church spends inordinate amounts of time on issues each time we do something new. We divest from certain assets due to the occupied territories managed by Israel, and we spend resources responding. We ordain Gays and Lesbians, and we spend resources responding. We perform gay marriages, we spend resources responding. All of these are a good use of our resources. Getting into a flame war with Pat Robertson and his followers? Waste of resources. Don’t feed the trolls. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/96 "2015-03-25T16:38:09Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > How do you know how the audience felt about his message? I attended services with my sister-in-law last year on the Sunday before Christmas. She attends one of the mega-churches in her town. I found the sermon to go against my personal faith, to be barely rooted in Biblical teaching, and it went against much of what I believe in. I didn’t fill out a survey however. A review of that sermon would not reveal my discomfort - and more than a few hundred attended. I am sure that I am not the only one who had issues with it. If your sister-in-law wasn’t there with you, would you have gotten up and walked out in the middle of the sermon? If so, and the reverend asked why you were leaving, what would you have said? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/97 "2015-03-25T16:41:09Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Good deeds are what we do. That whole hymn of “they will know we are Christians by our love.” > > What would you like us to do? Shall we start a religious war? An online flame war? Maybe toss something up on message boards? Buy a billboard calling out Robertson? > > Seriously - what will that accomplish? What will it cost? What is the ROI? > > If I am going to spend my church’s resources on calling out all of the stupidity done in Christ’s name (and deal with attacks that will occur on my congregation when we do it) - that will result in fewer abilities to do good work. It would be a full-time job for a fully staffed church office. As it is, our church spends inordinate amounts of time on issues each time we do something new. We divest from certain assets due to the occupied territories managed by Israel, and we spend resources responding. We ordain Gays and Lesbians, and we spend resources responding. We perform gay marriages, we spend resources responding. All of these are a good use of our resources. > > Getting into a flame war with Pat Robertson and his followers? Waste of resources. Don’t feed the trolls. And if everyone said, well, I can’t fix global warming, what would it accomplish, what would be my ROI… where would we be if everyone said that? If everyone keeps living as if there is no tomorrow, pretty soon, there won’t be. - Kurt Vonnegut ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/98 "2015-03-25T16:48:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If your sister-in-law wasn’t there with you, would you have gotten up and walked out in the middle of the sermon? > If so, and the reverend asked why you were leaving, what would you have said? People walk in and out regularly with kids, bathroom trips, etc. My walking out of a room of several hundred wouldn’t even show up as a blip on the radar. I have never been to a sermon where a minister called out someone as they were stepping out. If asked my thoughts - I would happily tell him that his judgementalistic style does not fit my faith. Then again, I only attended as part of the family event. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/99 "2015-03-25T17:07:38Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Hush you. Don’t interrupt the atheist liberal circle jerk. Last one done eats the cookie and turns out the lights. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895/100 "2015-03-25T17:24:15Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > And if everyone said, well, I can’t fix global warming, what would it accomplish, what would be my ROI… where would we be if everyone said that? > > If everyone keeps living as if there is no tomorrow, pretty soon, there won’t be. - Kurt Vonnegut Actually, our church is pretty involved in environmental areas. That is a problem that we do want to address - and that we can fix. Fixing Pat Robertson? Low on the priority list. Better use of our time, energy, and money in other areas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-will-white-christian-moderates-speak-up/715895.md?page=6)