# When would a minority of people be religious and how would society look like? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 9, 2021, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260 "2021-08-09T00:32:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/241 "2021-08-17T16:24:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > But you should be able to rely on actual surveys where people self-report their answers to specific questions like “Do not believe in God”, as in the Eurobarometer and Pew surveys in the Wiki I linked to above. > > Not at all. So you’d rather follow the “make numbers up” school of demographics? People’s self-reporting, along with observation of behaviour, are the best tools for answering questions like this. What alternative method are you proposing? Mind reading? > [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > > You cannot rely on census numbers to tell you whether a country is generally religious or not. > > Why not? Because censuses generally don’t distinguish between _cultural_ membership and belief. As the UK example given shows. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/242 "2021-08-17T16:24:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > {…} Now sure, just because someone checks the box “CofE” does not mean that are deeply religious as say American Evangelicals. Their faith may be deep or shallow or even doubters. But it does mean they are not atheists. {…} Except when it does, of course, > As I said, my wife filled it out and didn’t really think that is was a question worth any real thought. Even though she is just as much an atheist and non-religious as I am. Were I the one filling it in I’d have answered differently. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/243 "2021-08-17T16:41:48Z")
No, _census,_ where everyone has to answer and people answer anonymously. There are also a absence of leading questions. Too many polls have biased or leading questions. Such as a famous poll question:" Are you in favor of reducing mass shootings by increasing gun control?" Or here: > **[Example: Leading Question Bias](http://www.public.coe.edu/~gcross/toolkit/collect/ct-lead.html)** > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Except when it does, of course, Really, a single anecdote proves this? 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/244 "2021-08-17T16:52:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Really, a single anecdote proves this? 🤨 ‘Now sure, just because someone checks the box “CofE” does not mean that are deeply religious but it does mean they are not atheists.’ Except when it does mean they are atheist. As the single anecdote proves, ya know, Black Swans and all… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/245 "2021-08-17T16:57:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, _census,_ where everyone has to answer and people answer anonymously. That’s not how the census works. Religion questions are optional ( **N\_B** has also said as much about the UK one), and no census I’ve ever taken has been anonymous. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Too many polls have biased or leading questions. The questions I cited are right there, critique them if you must, not some other hypotheticals. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/246 "2021-08-17T17:00:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There is no new question, that’s what “clarifying” means - that was the question all long. It’s a different question though. So I don’t care if you or the OP calls it a “clarification”; it’s a new question. And the absolute best faith response in such a thread is what I am doing, which is answering both questions. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m taking it as saying what it says - that 294+ million Chinese believe in Chinese folk religion 294 million Chinese would still be very much the minority in a country of 1.4 billion. And anyway, the point was, that self-identifying with a group doesn’t necessarily mean believing the spiritual claims on which that group was founded. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/247 "2021-08-17T17:05:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But your claim was that most of the world was _atheist_. _Most of the world_? Go ahead and point out where I said that. > [@DrDeth](#): > > What are the “developed countries” Any in Latin America? Africa? Which nations in Asia are “developed”? Shall I google it for you? What exactly is the point you’re making? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/248 "2021-08-17T17:10:46Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > 294 million Chinese would still be very much the minority in a country of 1.4 billion No-one said they were the majority of Chinese. CFR followers aren’t the only Chinese religionists. But they definitely shouldn’t be counted in with the atheists and agnostics. > [@Mijin](#): > > And anyway, the point was, that self-identifying with a group doesn’t necessarily mean believing the spiritual claims on which that group was founded. Nor does it mean they _don’t_. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/249 "2021-08-17T17:11:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Why not? Pretty much everyone has to respond, and they get to respond anonymously. As opposed to a poll or survey, where some refuse, more ignore and a few participate. That is not the case in the UK. It is an “optional” question which skews the numbers to start with. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Now sure, just because someone checks the box “CofE” does not mean that are deeply religious as say American Evangelicals. Their faith may be deep or shallow or even doubters. But it does mean they are not atheists. again, demonstrably not the case in the UK. As I said to a previous poster, on the last census all four of us were down as “C of E” and none of us believed in god. I guarantee we were not alone in that. That also doesn’t begin to deal with the glaring issue of adults answering the question on behalf of their kids. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/250 "2021-08-17T17:48:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No-one said they were the majority of Chinese. Ah I’m sorry. I thought I was responding to a thread about about _countries with a minority of people being religious_, but I guess I posted in the wrong thread. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Nor does it mean they _don’t_ [believe the spiritual claims]. Of course not. It would be bonkers for anyone to look at the census data and conclude that anyone saying “China folk religion” is necessarily atheist. What an absurd straw man. I was suggesting that many of those people are likely atheist based on my personal experience of living in China and taking part in those rituals. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/251 "2021-08-17T18:02:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What are the “developed countries” Any in Latin America? Africa? Which nations in Asia are “developed”? I ask again. What nations do _you_ consider to be “developed”? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/252 "2021-08-17T18:10:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I ask again. What nations do _you_ consider to be “developed”? I follow the standard definitions of the term such as the UN HDI. I’ve been reminded that this is a trick that you’ve tried in other threads: that as soon as anyone mentions the term “developed country” you go off on a tangent about that, and ignore the main topic. e.g. on gun homicides in developed countries. But it’s especially silly in a thread like this, where my statement that the US was “unusual among developed countries” in its degree of religiosity was just a throwaway comment. I wasn’t basing my argument on that, nor has anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/253 "2021-08-17T18:15:48Z")
So, you withdraw the “unusual among developed countries” comment? Do you know that that list does not call any nations “developed” it just gives a relative score? Where is you cut off? Say the top half? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/254 "2021-08-17T18:25:38Z")
Who gives a shit? But nice try. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/255 "2021-08-17T18:52:15Z")
Please drop the hijack about which counties are developed, or what “developed” means. Neither is relevant to the topic. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/256 "2021-08-17T18:52:21Z")
**Warning** for **DrDeth** and we’ll be reviewing if you are due for a suspension. As you were just suspended July 13 for obsessive posting. It will be an immediate one day suspension pending our discussion. You’ve been told not to hijack threads and here you are with one of your pet-peeves as the flagger noted. This hijacks about developed countries is derailing the thread. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/257 "2021-08-17T19:03:32Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > again, demonstrably not the case in the UK. As I said to a previous poster, on the last census all four of us were down as “C of E” and none of us believed in god. I guarantee we were not alone in that. Also I previously mentioned that I think I ticked CofE, and I’m also an atheist. Although I think an afterlife is very unlikely, there’s no way I can know. So I don’t _believe in_ an afterlife, I guess - it certainly doesn’t guide my actions in any way. I don’t chose what to do, or centre my morals around, whether my choices will send me to heaven or hell or turn me into a cockroach in the next life, it’s all about the results in this life. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/258 "2021-08-17T19:06:29Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I thought I was responding to a thread about about _countries with a minority of people being religious_ , but I guess I posted in the wrong thread. So, not China then… > [@Mijin](#): > > Of course not. It would be bonkers for anyone to look at the census data and conclude that anyone saying “China folk religion” is necessarily atheist. What an absurd straw man. > > I was suggesting that many of those people are likely atheist Distinction without a difference. You were arguing that China is effectively majority atheist, which it is not. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/259 "2021-08-17T19:08:20Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Let me narrowly define that by “not religious” in the OP, I mean people stop believing in after life specifically. > > People believe and act like - that this life is all they got, and do not do anything for payback after death. That feels like a weird definition to me. I feel like a belief in an afterlife is not very closely correlated with what I think of as “religious”. For instance, my very religious childhood rabbi, when asked about Jewish beliefs about any afterlife in my confirmation class, replied, “We don’t know”. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/260 "2021-08-17T19:24:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So, not China then… Yeah when pinned down, just repeat your assertion again, that’ll work. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Distinction without a difference. You were arguing that China is effectively majority atheist, which it is not. You just said that some 300m claim “China folk religion”. Even if all those people actually believed in the existence of the gods of that religion (and I know that to be false for the Chinese I interacted with when I was in China), that leaves 1.1 billion to account for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260.md?page=14)