# When would a minority of people be religious and how would society look like? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 9, 2021, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260 "2021-08-09T00:32:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/41 "2021-08-09T13:08:55Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > This is where Christianity comes in. Christianity seems to do a bang-up job answering … or pretending to answer … all of the above, and more. I don’t think other religions really do all that, or not as well. Except Islam which appears to do it better. As for the OP, it would look like, in the US, the Bay Area. I don’t think we’re mostly nonreligious, but our diversity is such that no sect thinks it can drive politics. Thus our politics is driven by mostly secular issues. The religious meet in their temples and churches and mosques, but don’t try to tell the rest of us how to live. 20 years ago a religious member of our school board proposed a moment of meditation (read prayer.)She didn’t get very far. The President of the Board, who was Jewish, said he’d personally sue. She didn’t last long, and the Board has gotten even less religious since. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/42 "2021-08-09T13:25:28Z")
This may clear up some of the confusion, and is interesting in it’s own right: > **[Atheists Are Sometimes More Religious Than Christians](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/05/american-atheists-religious-european-christians/560936/)** > > A new study shows how poorly we understand the beliefs of people who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular. > Second, the researchers found that American “nones”—those who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular—are more religious than European nones. The notion that religiously unaffiliated people can be religious at all may seem contradictory, but if you disaffiliate from organized religion it does not necessarily mean you’ve sworn off belief in God, say, or prayer. > > The third finding reported in the study is by far the most striking. As it turns out, “American ‘nones’ are as religious as—or even more religious than— _Christians_ in several European countries, including France, Germany, and the U.K.” > > “That was a surprise,” Neha Sahgal, the lead researcher on the study, told me. “That’s the comparison that’s fascinating to me.” She highlighted the fact that whereas only 23 percent of European Christians say they believe in God with absolute certainty, 27 percent of American _nones_ say this. The study also found most Western Europeans still believe in the idea of a soul, so maybe those societies don’t really fit what the OP is asking about? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/43 "2021-08-09T13:32:30Z")
I find it irritating that atheists are conflated with people who are something other: > Second, the researchers found that American “nones”—those who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/44 "2021-08-09T13:39:02Z")
Also, note that the title of the article says “Atheists Re Sometimes More Religious Than Christians”, but the quoted part of the article states “Second, the researchers found that American “nones”—those who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular—are more religious than European nones”, so we have gone from comparing atheists to Christians in the title to comparing American “nones” (which includes atheists but by no means is dominated by them) to European “nones”. @DemonTree, is there any chance you can find a site that is about atheists in particular that supports your corollary? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/45 "2021-08-09T13:46:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > @DemonTree, is there any chance you can find a site that is about atheists in particular that supports your corollary? Do you mean believing in ‘new age’ stuff specifically? I should think that’s _less_ common among self-professed atheists if anything, like the survey showed. They’re more likely to find non-spiritual ways to address those needs. Like for a while I remember there was a sort of atheist movement with regular meetings - the sister of one of my friends’ was active in it - but it seemed to peter out. What I’d like to know is why the US is sooo much more religious than Europe. None of the explanations I’ve heard really seem sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/46 "2021-08-09T15:19:11Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What I’d like to know is why the US is sooo much more religious than Europe. None of the explanations I’ve heard really seem sufficient. America is a heavily conservative society that needs to be dragged, kicking and screaming, towards progress and enlightenment. I realize that there are many non-conservatives who are religious. I propose that they do not represent regressive values, eg. opposition to LGBT and women’s rights. If not for the hard right evangelical conservatives, religion and personal beliefs would be a much less prominent feature in American society and politics. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/47 "2021-08-09T15:45:42Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I don’t think of non-religious as being equivalent to atheist. There are plenty of people in the UK who don’t go to church, don’t believe in the various tenets of Christianity or whatever religion was part of their cultural tradition, but have some sort of vague belief in a higher being, or an afterlife/soul etc. These are the people I’d consider ‘spiritual but not religious’, and they are probably rather more common than the real atheists who don’t believe in anything non-material. (Maybe this is different in the US.) I feel almost the same as you, and I think that a large part of the USA meets that description too. The part where you and I and many people on this thread would disagree is: How vague can that belief be and still count as spiritual/religious? It seems that for many on this thread, any sort of vagueness would suffice, as long as there’s no out-and-out DISbelief. I personally would not count such people as spiritual/religious unless they had some sort of actually positive belief even if very minor. But all that is quibbling over details which are really irrelevant to the OP, I think. How much difference is there between a society where most people have “some sort of vague belief” and one where they have no belief at all? No difference at all, I think. BUT - A society where most people do have some sort of real belief, that would surely be different than one where they have no belief at all. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/48 "2021-08-09T15:51:37Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I don’t think of non-religious as being equivalent to atheist. There are plenty of people in the UK who don’t go to church, don’t believe in the various tenets of Christianity or whatever religion was part of their cultural tradition, but have some sort of vague belief in a higher being, or an afterlife/soul etc. These are the people I’d consider ‘spiritual but not religious’, and they are probably rather more common than the real atheists who don’t believe in anything non-material. (Maybe this is different in the US.) People who don’t attend church aren’t always atheists. It’s more like “my parents aren’t around to force me to go anymore, so I’ll sleep in.” They’re going to profess belief in God to avoid scandal. As for why Americans appear to be more religious, it’s more of a rural thing. Church is a constant social outlet for isolated communities. We’re not packed together in fertile valleys like most Europeans. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Besides that, adopting another belief system doesn’t have to mean a supernatural one. It could be a political philosophy like communism that served as something of a state religion in the countries that practiced it. Or it could be something like Atheism+ that seems designed to address the ‘wanting justice’, and ‘finding community’ needs that @Senegoid mentioned. If you’re talking about Communist Russia and China, it’s not like they had a choice between atheism and organized religion. Communism forbidding religion doesn’t mean communism replaces religion. Conversely, atheists aren’t automatically communists. Some religious adherents regard atheism as an organized force that seeks to undermine the rules of society. The ones who scream about the Ten Commandments being on display in government buildings are more concerned with separation of church and state, and they’re just like any other extremist. They make the headlines, but they don’t serve as official atheist ambassadors. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/49 "2021-08-09T15:55:59Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > How much difference is there between a society where most people have “some sort of vague belief” and one where they have no belief at all? No difference at all, I think. BUT - A society where most people do have some sort of real belief, that would surely be different than one where they have no belief at all. If we are looking at the OP, the I think this difference does matter. If you have people that have a vague Christian belief, then Christian arguments still hold sway in political discourse. With people that have no belief at all, or atheists, religious and biblical arguments are at least besides the point, if not a negative. For example, a politician’s pious reference to God may help swing the vote of a nominally, vaguely religious person, but would likely turn off someone with no belief whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/50 "2021-08-09T16:30:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > America is a heavily conservative society that needs to be dragged, kicking and screaming, towards progress and enlightenment. > [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > People who don’t attend church aren’t always atheists. It’s more like “my parents aren’t around to force me to go anymore, so I’ll sleep in.” They’re going to profess belief in God to avoid scandal. As for why Americans appear to be more religious, it’s more of a rural thing. Church is a constant social outlet for isolated communities. We’re not packed together in fertile valleys like most Europeans. Does the religion cause the conservatism, or vice versa? Or is it all due to a third factor? > [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > If you’re talking about Communist Russia and China, it’s not like they had a choice between atheism and organized religion. Communism forbidding religion doesn’t mean communism replaces religion. Conversely, atheists aren’t automatically communists. Quite a few people in those countries continued to believe in secret, but AFAIK communism did eliminate the power of the church as a organisation in Eastern Europe, and some of those countries are still pretty damn secular. China is largely irreligious, but not liberal by a long shot. So I’m not sure we can say what a non-religious world would look like as a general rule. > [@Keeve](#): > > But all that is quibbling over details which are really irrelevant to the OP, I think. How much difference is there between a society where most people have “some sort of vague belief” and one where they have no belief at all? No difference at all, I think. BUT - A society where most people do have some sort of real belief, that would surely be different than one where they have no belief at all. I’m not sure about that either. Religion seems to leave its mark on a society even when many or most people have stopped believing, in terms of morals and ethics. Maybe that’s something that fades over time, but we haven’t had long enough to see. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/51 "2021-08-09T16:50:13Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > China is largely irreligious, but not liberal by a long shot. So I’m not sure we can say what a non-religious world would look like as a general rule. Excellent point. What would a non-religious liberal democracy look like? Wow, I’m dizzy just thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/52 "2021-08-09T17:49:42Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Does the religion cause the conservatism, or vice versa? Or is it all due to a third factor? I’d say conservativism, especially of the right-wing sort, co-opts religion for its own means. I say that with reasonable confidence because there are many religious people who hold pretty liberal views. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/53 "2021-08-09T18:46:10Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Does the religion cause the conservatism, or vice versa? Or is it all due to a third factor? Not just religion. It’s a lot of things. Frustration over paying the same tax rate as the cities even though you make less money. The history of the US fighting for land and liberty. Urban vs rural. Most of the US doesn’t live adjacent to speakers of a different language like Europeans do. Owning and protecting your own property independent of royalty. Macho love of guns and trucks. Fear of anything different. Fear of having our heritage outlawed. Fear of non-Americans usurping our way of life. Right wing radio and TV commentators who prey on those fears. This only scratches the surface. ---
**Author:** ![themapleleaf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themapleleaf/32/14349_2.png) [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/54 "2021-08-09T21:05:20Z")
My guess is that the USA would not look much different than it does now, except that some socially conservative values that have a Biblical origin would diminish in places like the Deep South. Many Americans are already more culturally Christian than truly practicing the religion and atheism is more socially acceptable there than it was a generation or two ago. The end result would probably be a lot like the aforementioned European countries where the truly religious are in a minority. I now live in the Czech Republic; here, most people are atheists or irreligious agnostics. Those who are religious (mostly Catholics, alternatively typically mainstream Protestants) tend to be level-headed and not to practice their religion intensively. Case in point: I have a friend who is an ordained minister (not his day job) in one of the Czech Protestant churches. I spent Christmas 2019 with him and his fiancee. On Christmas Eve/Day, they discussed whether or not to attend the local church of his denomination and shortly decided to stay at home! Generally here, people live life according to increasingly Western values and adopt a standard secular morality. Canada could be an indicator of what the United States could become if people ceased to practice religion. From my experience growing up in Toronto, a significant percentage of people is nominally religious (especially recent immigrants, so often not Christians but typically Muslims or Buddhists). However, there’s a lot of “live and let live”. If people are devoutly religious, they are usually so for themselves and if people are not, no one censures them. It may be different in more rural and conservative places, but where I am from, religion has little effect on the everyday social experience. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/55 "2021-08-09T21:59:35Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > - Where did we all come from? > - Where will we all end up? All he’d wanted were the same answers the rest of us want. Where did I come from? Where am I going? How long have I got? > [@Senegoid](#): > > - I don’t want to ever die! And all I could do is sit there and watch him die. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/56 "2021-08-09T22:29:32Z")
even the concept of atheism will be outdated someday. were moving more towards a post theist society. However there will be other forms of tribalism that replace religion as sources of strife ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/57 "2021-08-09T23:27:52Z")
> **[Religion in the United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom)** > > Religion in the United Kingdom (2018 research) > British society is one of the most secularised in the world and in many surveys determining religious beliefs of the population agnosticism, nontheism, atheism, secular humanism, and non-affiliation are views shared by a majority of Britons. Historically, it was dominated for over 1,400 years by various forms of Christianity, which replaced preceding Romano-British religions, including Celtic and Anglo-Saxon paganism. Religious affiliations of ... 2011 census, has 59.5% saying Christian, about 10% other religions, and 27.5 no religion. Rather close to the USA, in fact with 61% Christian, and about 10% other religions. Only 55 stated atheist. > [@DemonTree](#): > > What I’d like to know is why the US is sooo much more religious than Europe. None of the explanations I’ve heard really seem sufficient. It isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2021, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/58 "2021-08-09T23:45:29Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What I’d like to know is why the US is sooo much more religious than Europe. None of the explanations I’ve heard really seem sufficient. The success of capitalism over communism. Well, something similar. Most European countries have an established church that doesn’t have to work very hard to attract and retain followers, because they are supported by taxes. Whereas religion in the US is fiercely competitive, with each church competing to attract enough followers to pay the bills. So they work harder and modify their “product” to be more attractive to their “customers” I don’t think this is a complete explanation. I suspect the lack of an economic safety net in the US also plays a role. And just “different places take different paths.” But I do think it’s part of the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/59 "2021-08-10T02:19:33Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What I’d like to know is why the US is sooo much more religious than Europe. None of the explanations I’ve heard really seem sufficient. What explanations have you seen? One of the traditional explanations was that ‘church’ provided a connection and a guarantee for a highly mobile community. That certainly seems to have been the case for my father (who was also a Mason), and is referenced above in post 13 and > [@Have You Experienced Culture Shock Moving Within Your Own Country?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-you-experienced-culture-shock-moving-within-your-own-country/947268/52): > in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-would-a-minority-of-people-be-religious-and-how-would-society-look-like/948260/60 "2021-08-10T02:50:15Z")
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