# When you die, I suspect you wake up crying. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 5, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582 "2005-02-05T23:20:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/101 "2005-02-11T08:18:53Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > Honestly I’m not sure how similar or dissimilar it would be from any other moment. But you just got through asserting that it _would_ be different. You’re contradicting yourself. > [@](#): > > But I do know that every other moment has been part of a continuous timeline. Every other moment has had a before and an after. And I’m remembering what every other moment was like from the perspective of them being over and done with. Not being stranded in them. Time does not stop because you die. People die every day, yet time continues. And even if time _did_ stop, you couldn’t experience “being stranded”, because there would be no passage of time in which to experience such a state. > [@](#): > > I think it’s reasonable to ask whether the moment that ends our own personal timeline might not be different from the rest of our life. I still don’t understand why you would assume that it would be. What evidence do you have to suggest that it would? > [@](#): > > It’s reasonable and interesting to speculate what is at the boundary of our consciousness or our own personal timeline And the obvious answer is that our consciousness simply ceases to be when we die. > [@](#): > > just as it is to speculate what’s at the boundary of the universe and what’s at the boundary of time. Sentient Meat started a really good thread about that awhile back. We’ve had quite a few threads that talk about that. You should try doing a search. The very short answer is that the universe does not _have_ a boundary, in the same sense that a circle does not have an end. > [@](#): > > I’ll leave it to the dense, unimaginative and incurious to be perfectly satisfied with their answers. It’s ironic that you would say that, because _you_ seem to be the one who is “perfectly satisfied” with your answers. As near as I can figure from your cryptic writing style, you believe that your consciousness somehow continues after you die, or picks up again, or some such thing, but not in the traditional ascent to heaven sense. This odd belief of yours seems to be wholly fabricated from your imagination; you don’t appear to have any evidence to back it up. Yet it seems impossible to dissuade you. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/102 "2005-02-11T08:34:10Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Great analysis, Ugly Beech. > > I think it’s weird that certain atheists here seem to think that this is an argument for something mystical or pleasant (“wishful thinking”). Incorrect. A wish does not have to be for something pleasant. One could just as easily wish for an _un_pleasant thing. The point is that merely _thinking_ (or imagining, or ‘wishing’) a thing does not make that thing true. I’m asking on what _evidence_ you base the belief. Understand? > [@](#): > > This seems to me to be a kind of zealousness to perceive _any_ philosophical argument in the light of those beliefs that you think you can trounce without much effort (“damn belief in the afterlife! wishful thinking!”). I suppose I do possess a certain zealousness to pursue the truth. Which is why I questioned Ugly Beech as to what the _reason_ is for this belief. Just because you _write_ something doesn’t make it true. I could write that I will turn into Barney the Purple Dinosaur when I die. Is there any particular reason to believe that statement, just because I wrote it? I could grouse that you are closed-minded for not believing that I will turn into Barney, and I could employ ad-hominem, saying you are a ‘zealous atheist’, but neither of those things is evidence for the belief. > [@](#): > > How weensy. Is that your best argument? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/103 "2005-02-11T08:35:54Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > The real paradox is what happens when the memory chain is finally broken _for good_. Why is that a _paradox_? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/104 "2005-02-11T09:02:33Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Incorrect. A wish does not have to be for something pleasant. One could just as easily wish for an _un_pleasant thing. No, one does not “wish” for bad things. Semantics, my child. “I wished for diarrhea yesterday.” > [@](#): > > The point is that merely _thinking_ (or imagining, or ‘wishing’) a thing does not make that thing true. I’m asking on what _evidence_ you base the belief. Understand? This is a philosophical discussion. It is not about “beliefs” in the sense you mean. > [@](#): > > I suppose I do possess a certain zealousness to pursue the truth. Yes, I wonder how the truth ever got along without you. > [@](#): > > Just because you _write_ something doesn’t make it true. That’s very edifying. > [@](#): > > I could write that I will turn into Barney the Purple Dinosaur when I die. Is there any particular reason to believe that statement, just because I wrote it? You watch Barney? I thought that show was for infants. > [@](#): > > I could grouse that you are closed-minded for not believing that I will turn into Barney, and I could employ ad-hominem, saying you are a ‘zealous atheist’, but neither of those things is evidence for the belief. Your arguments could use a stiff shot of maturity. All this talk about Barney is degrading. And I am a pantheist, not an atheist (for the record). ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/105 "2005-02-11T09:19:12Z")
Why should the experience of becoming as non-conscious as we were for the 13.7 billion years before our consciousness be affected by a **future** variable (_ie._ whether we remain so for evermore, or not)? If there is _no_ difference, what is _paradoxical_, or even _interesting_, about that? Surely it is only like inputting one final image into the memory of a hard disk before throwing it on a fire? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/106 "2005-02-11T09:21:44Z")
Veiled personal insults. How very clever, Aeschines. > [@Aeschines](#): > > And I am a pantheist, not an atheist (for the record). I wasn’t saying you were an atheist. You completely missed the point. Get back to me when you can come up with a cogent argument instead of schoolyard taunts. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/107 "2005-02-11T09:24:11Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Surely it is only like inputting one final image into the memory of a hard disk before throwing it on a fire? No, dammit! How many times do I have to explain? There IS no fire! That section of time-space is NOT destroyed. Time is NOT a meat-grinder that transforms the present into the past. Reread, rethink! ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/108 "2005-02-11T09:26:00Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Veiled personal insults. How very clever, Aeschines. Yeah, that talk about Barney cut to the _bone._ > [@](#): > > Get back to me when you can come up with a cogent argument instead of schoolyard taunts. Nya nya! Taunting you–taunting _you!_ ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/109 "2005-02-11T09:28:30Z")
I think somebody’s having a meltdown. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/110 "2005-02-11T09:31:31Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > No, dammit! How many times do I have to explain? There IS no fire! That section of time-space is NOT destroyed. But the equivalent in that case is that the hard drive still exists in that period of spacetime between its manufacture in Korea and its destruction in that fire, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/111 "2005-02-11T09:32:55Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > But the equivalent in that case is that the hard drive still exists in that period of spacetime between its manufacture in Korea and its destruction in that fire, yes? Sounds right. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/112 "2005-02-11T09:35:00Z")
So there _is_ still a fire, and our last memory before consciousness-end _is_ only as ‘paradoxical’ as loading up one last image before burning your disk? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/113 "2005-02-11T09:47:52Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > So there _is_ still a fire, and our last memory before consciousness-end _is_ only as ‘paradoxical’ as loading up one last image before burning your disk? I’m not sure that the metaphor really clarifies anything. It really comes down to the memory chain, though. Someone could be a vegetable or totally lose their memory/sense and still be alive. Same deal. The problem doesn’t arise because of a quickly flipped switch. The process of fading could be gradual. The paradox is really quite simple: we depend on a memory chain that eventually will end. But the memory chain/speculation system is not built to comprehend that. So we tell little stories about how ourselves and others will fare once we’re dead, but these stories never seem quite right (or are in fact not right) as we are still in them as remberers/processors, despite the fact that we are trying to write ourselves out of the story. This is really a lot simpler (yet more subtle) than people here are trying to make it. It has nothing to do with “belief” or “wishful thinking.” ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/114 "2005-02-11T09:59:06Z")
> [@](#): > > The paradox is really quite simple: we depend on a memory chain that eventually will end. But the memory chain/speculation system is not built to comprehend that. I comprehend it completely. What’s _not_ to comprehend? The only thing I _don’t_ understand is how that’s a ‘paradox’. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/115 "2005-02-11T16:06:28Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > No, dammit! How many times do I have to explain? . . . That section of time-space is NOT destroyed. I’m thinking it might be fun to capture Aeschines and torture him. After a few hours, if he asks us to stop, we could point out that it doesn’t matter if we do or not, that section of space-time is not destroyed. I haven’t decided about killing him, though. ---
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/116 "2005-02-11T16:12:05Z")
Sorry to butt in, but didn’t **blowero** clinch the argument just a few posts back? He pointed out that one’s consciousness could not be ‘stranded’ in one moment, as one needs to perceive time passing (in a series of ‘moments’ if you like) to perceive of anything at all. Say I come to my bodily death falling from a balcony of a hotel (and lets hope it’s not some Holiday Inn or such). My last conscious moment will probably be one of discomfort as my skull shatters. If, despite my brain’s demise, I carry on for eternity experiencing that discomfort, wouldn’t my mind wander? I’d be stuck thinking ‘god, it feels like bloody years since I dashed my brains out…what was my room number again?’ I’ve heard the one about experiencing your dying moment for eternity before, but usually as some form of secular hell i.e. ‘bad’ people are left regretting their scumbag lives for ever more. But I don’t see how it would work, or why it would happen. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/117 "2005-02-12T04:05:48Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > What you’re doing, is blathering. > [@blowero](#): > > you are spouting utter hogwash. > [@blowero](#): > > this warped fantasy of yours …This thread is a disaster area. Just give it up, already.’ > [@blowero](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything to “get”. > [@blowero](#): > > This odd belief of yours seems to be wholly fabricated from your imagination > [@blowero](#): > > I don’t find it interesting at all. It’s just nonsense. Do you really have that much trouble comprehending existence without you in it? > [@blowero](#): > > Anything other than wishful thinking, that is? > [@blowero](#): > > Get back to me when you can come up with a cogent argument instead of schoolyard taunts. and, finally: > [@blowero](#): > > I think somebody’s having a meltdown. **Aeschines** , just don’t respond to this stuff. (BTW, these were directed at both you and me). Certain people either have LARGE bugs up their butt or are trying to provoke you. They’ll especially do it when they know they’re comfortably in the majority and you have an unpopular viewpoint. Just ignore him and he’ll go away and find some puppy to kick. **Hoodoo’s** post is beneath contempt. It would be inappropriate even for the pit. > [@aeschines](#): > > This seems to me to be a kind of zealousness to perceive any philosophical argument in the light of those beliefs that you think you can trounce without much effort (“damn belief in the afterlife! wishful thinking!”). Yup, I agree. Mostly I think it’s a lazy imagination. It’s very easy to argue the pedestrian view because you dont have to explain anything. The bar is much higher if you have a slightly novel/interesting view (mine) and frankly exceedingly high if you have a very novel/interesting view (which is why you’re getting beat up more than me). You’ve obviously thought about it a LOT and have done everything I think you could conceivably have done to put it across. A warm reception was never going to happen. But this level of hostility is - well actually interesting, isn’t it? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/118 "2005-02-12T04:48:45Z")
**[Moderator Mode]** I just dragged a whole sack full of warnings out here from the Mod’s locker, and now I’m too tired to hang them on individual posters. **STOP IT**. Either show some courtesy to your opponents or simply stay out of this thread. There have been sufficient nasty remarks from both sides of the chasm that I am not about to play the “Who started it?” game. I am ending it. The next snide remark, catty observation, comment on tone instead of substance, or any thing else that irritates me gets an official warning. **[/Moderator Mode]** ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/119 "2005-02-12T15:05:11Z")
**Tomndebb** , I hate Smilies, I’m sorry. Maybe I should Just change may username to Smiley. **Uglybeech** , I’m enjoying this thread, I don’t dislike you or\*\* Aeschines\*\*, my post illustrated a metaphysical point about your perceptions of space-time, and really did not mean to express ANY ill will. ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582/120 "2005-02-14T03:24:27Z")
**We wake up as squawling newborn babies.** I do believe we ‘wake up’ as babies (or 2 year olds to be more precise…when I believe consciousness kicks in), but not in the same time-space. I believe consciousness is recycled in a sense, but subsequent lives are unrelated and unaffected by each other in any way. It kind of bugs me a bit because I’m afraid I’m gonna come back as one of these nut-jobs I see daily. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-you-die-i-suspect-you-wake-up-crying/288582.md?page=5)