# Whence Came Jolly Roger

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-came-jolly-roger/637800>\
**Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\
**Created:** [October 15, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-came-jolly-roger/637800 "2012-10-15T18:18:18Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 11\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\
**Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-came-jolly-roger/637800/1 "2012-10-15T18:18:18Z")

</div>

Cecil’s post on the origin of the Jolly Roger, [Why was the pirate flag called the “Jolly Roger”? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/998/why-was-the-pirate-flag-called-the-jolly-roger), is perhaps unduly dismissive of the theory that “jolly” refers to the grinning rictus of the traditional skull. From the OED:

Etymology: Apparently \< jolly adj.+ a second element of uncertain origin (probably the male forename Roger: see Roger n.2), although the semantic motivation of either element is not sufficiently clear.  
Quot. 1724 suggests a French origin of the term. Perhaps on the strength of this quotation, some have suggested that the term is an adaptation (if so, evidently with folk-etymological alteration) of a French phrase \*joli rouge, lit. ‘pretty red’ ( \< joli jolly adj. + rouge rouge adj.), but this etymology is unconvincing, as no such (or similar) phrase appears to be attested in French with reference to a pirate’s flag, and the flag in question is (and always was) black rather than red. As for the semantic motivation, the first element may refer to the appearance of the skull, the conventional emblem adorning the flag, with the skull’s mouth humorously being taken as showing a broad grin; with the second element, compare Roger n.2 2 and especially Old Roger at Roger n.2 2b.  
The 1724 quote is:

1724 ‘C. Johnson’ Gen. Hist. Pyrates 193 On the hoisting of Jolly Roger, (the Name they give their black Flag,) their French hearts failed.  
“Old Roger” is a humorous or familiar name for the devil.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\
**Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-came-jolly-roger/637800/2 "2012-10-15T20:20:17Z")

</div>

> [@jbaker](#):
>
> Cecil’s post on the origin of the Jolly Roger, [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/998/why-was-the-pirate-flag-called-the-jolly-roger](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/998/why-was-the-pirate-flag-called-the-jolly-roger), is perhaps unduly dismissive of the theory that “jolly” refers to the grinning rictus of the traditional skull.

I’m not sure if Cecil was blowing off this suggestion, or if he just didn’t get it.

> [@Cecil Adams](#):
>
> He’s jolly because he hasn’t got any lips? What kind of weird coastal humor is that supposed to be?

Just to spell it out:

No lips -\> you can see his teeth -\> smiling -\> jolly

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\
**Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-came-jolly-roger/637800/3 "2012-10-16T18:17:21Z")

</div>

Agreed, Cecil misses the point. No lips = see the teeth, and not just the teeth in front, but the teeth up the jaws, which curve back and up, and thus look like a smile. Ergo, jolly.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\
**Post date:** [October 16, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-came-jolly-roger/637800/4 "2012-10-16T23:22:21Z")

</div>

I believe he was just being snarky. Imagine that.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\
**Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-came-jolly-roger/637800/5 "2012-10-17T02:44:42Z")

</div>

“Roger” is a British euphemism for fornicate. With no evidence at all I’d always assumed “Jolly Roger” was a celebration of the rapine that, I’m sure, accompanied pirate life. Perhaps if anyone knows how far back that euphemism goes (so to speak)?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\
**Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-came-jolly-roger/637800/6 "2012-10-17T18:08:47Z")

</div>

Wiki says that roger was a slang term for penis during that time period. Hmmmmm. Gives a different meaning to “jolly roger”.

> **[Roger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger)**
>
> Roger is a masculine given name, and a surname. The given name is derived from the Old French personal names Roger and Rogier. These names are of Germanic origin, derived from the elements hrōd, χrōþi ("fame", "renown", "honour") and gār, gēr ("spear", "lance") (Hrōþigēraz). The name was introduced into England by the Normans. In Normandy, the Frankish name had been reinforced by the Old Norse cognate Hróðgeirr. The name introduced into England replaced the Old English cognate Hroðgar. Rog Fro...

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\
**Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-came-jolly-roger/637800/7 "2012-10-17T18:09:48Z")

</div>

> [@Learjeff](#):
>
> I believe he was just being snarky. Imagine that.

But he was being snarky by dismissing the very concept that makes the most sense in explaining the answer. Not very fighting of ignorance.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\
**Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-came-jolly-roger/637800/8 "2012-10-17T18:36:03Z")

</div>

> [@Irishman](#):
>
> But he was being snarky by dismissing the very concept that makes the most sense in explaining the answer. Not very fighting of ignorance.

It happens. Don’t forget entertainment value. The column in particular is a money-making feature in a for-profit publication. If sometimes the class cutup in Cecil gets the better of him, I try to cut him the slack he deserves on that basis. You draw more flies with honey.

(Unless it’s a [subject near and/or dear](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=561540) to my heart. Then, I degenerate into uber-grumpy [NEERRRRRRRDRRRRAGE!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12415708&postcount=51) After that passes, I console myself that my nerd-fueled indignation may have contributed to entertainment value, if not to enlightenment, so all’s right in the world again.)

ETA: OK, that’s just weird. Irishman, you and I have had this exact exchange before in the thread I cited, except our positions were reversed. I was grumping and you appear to be arguing for the humor value.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\
**Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-came-jolly-roger/637800/9 "2012-10-18T15:58:42Z")

</div>

Actually, if you look at my overall comments in that thread, you should see that I was making the same point there that I am making here. That column on D&D did nothing to dispell ignorance, it was all about running down the new thing. This column, he dismisses with snark a serious explanation for the “jolly” part. Neither serves the goal of fighting ignorance.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\
**Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-came-jolly-roger/637800/10 "2012-10-18T22:02:18Z")

</div>

> [@Irishman](#):
>
> Actually, if you look at my overall comments in that thread, you should see that I was making the same point there that I am making here. That column on D&D did nothing to dispell ignorance, it was all about running down the new thing. This column, he dismisses with snark a serious explanation for the “jolly” part. Neither serves the goal of fighting ignorance.

I think the difference is that on this topic, my righteous nerdular indignation wasn’t triggered, so I am taking a more bland and philosophical approach, and in the D&D topic I was seething and inflamed. And in both cases, yes, you are exactly in the same place. So we exchanged places because I moved to the other side of you. Still, stuck me as very odd.

Anyway, minor hijack ended.

Cecil sometimes plays parts of a topic for yuks. Love it, hate it, it is what it is, and overall, the Dope is a pretty good value proposition, ignorance-fighting-wise.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-came-jolly-roger/637800/11 "2012-10-26T12:13:21Z")

</div>

> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> You draw more flies with honey.

I agree with the sentiment - if I snark, I do so good naturedly. I also don’t particularly enjoy xkcd (to be perfectly honest, quite a bit of it goes over my head and other times I feel Munroe is a bit introspective) but it may not be [strictly true](http://xkcd.com/357/).