# Whence: Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 17, 2015, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897 "2015-02-17T09:38:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/1 "2015-02-17T09:38:34Z")
In their response to the recent terrorist acts the Danish Humanist association includes this saying, and while I think “true, true”, I’m also shouting “Yoda!” Is Yoda the only, or earliest source of that form of the statement though? And/or are there earlier equal expressions from more academically respectable philosophers? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/2 "2015-02-17T11:40:34Z")
Just is the Wheel, swerving not a hair… > [@Kipling](#): > > ‘The lesson is not well learnt, chela.’ The lama came to rest on a > folded blanket, as Kim went forward with his evening routine. ‘The > blow was but a shadow upon a shadow. Evil in itself–my legs weary > apace these latter days!–it met evil in me: anger, rage, and a lust > to return evil. These wrought in my blood, woke tumult in my stomach, > and dazzled my ears.’ Here he drank scalding black-tea ceremonially, > taking the hot cup from Kim’s hand. ‘Had I been passionless, the evil > blow would have done only bodily evil–a scar, or a bruise–which is > illusion. But my mind was not abstracted, for rushed in straightway a > lust to let the Spiti men kill. In fighting that lust, my soul was > torn and wrenched beyond a thousand blows. Not till I had repeated the > Blessings’ (he meant the Buddhist Beatitudes) ‘did I achieve calm. But > the evil planted in me by that moment’s carelessness works out to its > end. Just is the Wheel, swerving not a hair! Learn the lesson, chela.’ ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/3 "2015-02-17T15:23:08Z")
I’m not 100% sure but I think a quote of Gandhi is applicable: “Your beliefs become your thoughts, Your thoughts become your words, Your words become your actions, Your actions become your habits, Your habits become your values, Your values become your destiny.” ---
**Author:** ![DJ\_Motorbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90ced4/32.png) [@DJ\_Motorbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DJ_Motorbike)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/4 "2015-02-17T16:06:07Z")
So, yeah, Yoda. Not cool Empire Strikes Back Yoda, but Yoda from Episode I which means the phrase originates from the fevered mind of George Lucas. ESB was written by someone else IIRC. I’ve always thought that phrase was stupid because fear anger and even hate are all appropriate responses to some situations. Nor, does one necessarily lead to another. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/5 "2015-02-17T16:32:49Z")
> [@JustinC](#): > > I’m not 100% sure but I think a quote of Gandhi is applicable: > > “Your beliefs become your thoughts, > Your thoughts become your words, > Your words become your actions, > Your actions become your habits, > Your habits become your values, > Your values become your destiny.” Probably [not Gandhi](http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/01/10/watch-your-thoughts/). ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/6 "2015-02-17T17:34:02Z")
As for suffering, remember the wisdom of Sonja Grushenko: > [@](#): > > To love is to suffer. To avoid suffering one must not love. But then one suffers from not loving. Therefore, to love is to suffer; not to love is to suffer; to suffer is to suffer. To be happy is to love. To be happy, then, is to suffer, but suffering makes one unhappy. Therefore, to be unhappy, one must love or love to suffer or suffer from too much happiness. I hope you’re getting this down. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/7 "2015-02-17T17:48:07Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > So, yeah, Yoda. Not cool Empire Strikes Back Yoda, but Yoda from Episode I which means the phrase originates from the fevered mind of George Lucas. ESB was written by someone else IIRC. _The Empire Strikes Back_ was written by Lucas and sci-fi author Leigh Brackett from a basic storyline that Lucas came up with alone. After Brackett died Lucas brought in Larry Kasdan to polish it up and turn it into more of a true screenplay. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/8 "2015-02-17T19:04:05Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > So, yeah, Yoda. Not cool Empire Strikes Back Yoda, but Yoda from Episode I which means the phrase originates from the fevered mind of George Lucas. ESB was written by someone else IIRC. I’ve always thought that phrase was stupid because fear anger and even hate are all appropriate responses to some situations. Nor, does one necessarily lead to another. Yeah, cool Empire Strikes Back Yoda just said “Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they.” Totally different. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/9 "2015-02-17T19:15:21Z")
Fear leads to Anger. Anger leads to Hate. Haight leads to Ashbury. Once upon Ashbury, forever will it dominate your destiny. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/10 "2015-02-17T20:53:56Z")
> [@DJ\_Motorbike](#): > > I’ve always thought that phrase was stupid because fear anger and even hate are all appropriate responses to some situations. Nor, does one necessarily lead to another. [QUOTE=Yoda] Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try. [/QUOTE] is also pretty terrible advice to give someone. Actually, Yoda seems to be pretty poor at the whole “mentoring” thing in general. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/11 "2015-02-18T14:17:25Z")
Props on “whence.” Saves space and is correct. Maybe SD memeable, in fact. I post those kind of OPs a lot, and intend to use it. OK? ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/12 "2015-02-18T14:54:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > _The Empire Strikes Back_ was written by Lucas and sci-fi author Leigh Brackett from a basic storyline that Lucas came up with alone. After Brackett died Lucas brought in Larry Kasdan to polish it up and turn it into more of a true screenplay. Brackett did one draft of the screenplay, and then passed away. As I understand it, essentially nothing of her draft ended up in the final movie. Lucas kept her name on the screenplay, both because he had promised to do so, and because he liked and respected her. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/13 "2015-02-18T14:58:00Z")
I was under the impression that they just took her draft and grafted new scenes in, like Han being frozen in carbonite and Vader announcing that he’s Padme’s baby-daddy. To be honest I’ve never read that much about it though. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/14 "2015-02-18T15:08:29Z")
A good source is [The Secret History of Star Wars](http://www.amazon.com/Secret-History-Star-Wars-ebook/dp/B008BM7M3C/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1424271680&sr=1-1&keywords=secret+history+of+star+wars), by Michael Kaminski. From what I recall (I don’t have the book with me at the moment), most of the major beats of _Empire_ were developed after Brackett had died. Including Vader as Luke’s father (Brackett’s draft had Anakin Skywalker’s ghost appearing to Luke on Dagobah, along with Obi-Wan), the bit about “there is another,” and, as you say, Han being encased in carbonite and his fate left undetermined. Kaminski has Lucas writing two more drafts himself after Brackett’s, then bringing in Lawrence Kasdan for the final screenplay. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/15 "2015-02-18T15:17:33Z")
Kindled. Thank you, sir! ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/16 "2015-02-18T15:18:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Probably [not Gandhi](http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/01/10/watch-your-thoughts/). That was Quite Interesting, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/17 "2015-02-18T15:37:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Kindled. Thank you, sir! You’re quite welcome. I first found about that book here, I believe, in some long-forgotten Star Wars thread. Glad to pass it on. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/18 "2015-02-18T15:37:26Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Props on “whence.” Saves space and is correct. Maybe SD memeable, in fact. > > I post those kind of OPs a lot, and intend to use it. > > OK? Words are free, man. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/19 "2015-02-18T15:39:33Z")
> [@](#): > > That was Quite Interesting, thanks! No problem. My favorite Gandhi quote is “everyone is eager to garland my photos,\* but nobody wants to listen to my advice.” Because nowadays everyone wants to take his advice even when he didn’t really give it. Any uplifting quote eventually gets ascribed to him on the Internet, just like every witticism gets ascribed to Twain. \*People in India traditionally put garlands of flowers around images (or statues) of gods, holy men, deceased relatives and so on. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-fear-leads-to-anger-anger-leads-to-hate-hate-leads-to-suffering/712897/20 "2015-02-26T18:06:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No problem. My favorite Gandhi quote is “everyone is eager to garland my photos,\* but nobody wants to listen to my advice.” Because nowadays everyone wants to take his advice even when he didn’t really give it. Any uplifting quote eventually gets ascribed to him on the Internet, just like every witticism gets ascribed to Twain. > > \*People in India traditionally put garlands of flowers around images (or statues) of gods, holy men, deceased relatives and so on. I can’t say that attributing suitable quotes to him is entirely wrong. If you (and many others) see a quote as part of our belief in what he could have said, is it wrong to say he said it? We’re adding to a theory of thought, using his (maybe I should start capitalizing now) image to enforce our views, in a peaceful way. I don’t see that as being bad for humanity.