# "Whence" or "From Whence"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 22, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784 "2006-05-22T18:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/1 "2006-05-22T18:23:58Z")
Similarly, thence & hence. I was under the impression the “from” bit was implied by the “-ence” ending. Not true? ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/2 "2006-05-22T18:36:28Z")
As many of us Dopers love pointing out, “from whence” et al. are all technically incorrect. However, it’s really become one of many battlegrounds in the prescription vs. description language debate. Here’s [Dictionary.com’s take](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=whence): > [@](#): > > **Usage Note:** The construction _from whence_ has been criticized as redundant since the 18th century. It is true that whence incorporates the sense of from: a remote village, whence little news reached the wider world. But from whence has been used steadily by reputable writers since the 14th century, most notably in the King James Bible: “I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help” (Psalms). Such a respectable precedent makes it difficult to label the construction as incorrect. Still, it may be observed that whence (like thence) is most often used nowadays to impart an archaic or highly formal tone to a passage, and that this effect is probably better realized if the archaic syntax of the word–without from–is preserved as well. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/3 "2006-05-22T19:14:59Z")
Just want to add that also thence = from there hence = from here and the bonus round wherefore = why ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/4 "2006-05-22T19:19:12Z")
And thenceforth = from that moment onwards. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/5 "2006-05-22T19:24:40Z")
Yes…and I’m supposing that the “-ithers” fall into the same category? No from fo them either? Whither, thither, hither, dither…wait, not dither. That’s something else. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/6 "2006-05-22T19:25:54Z")
Either is acceptable, and was even when “whence” was in common usage. But just like you don’t say “from hence” or “from thence,” there’s no reason to say “from whence.” where here there whence hence thence wherefore \*\*\* therefore whither hither thither what \*\*\* that There’s a pattern (even though some words are missing)! ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/7 "2006-05-22T19:30:37Z")
As a matter of style, though, I think “from whence” should be avoided at all times, as it entails the incorrect use of a quaint word in an attempt to sound dignified. In other words it’s a genteelism. If you must use ‘whence’, then leave out the ‘from’. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/8 "2006-05-22T19:36:54Z")
What’s wrong with herefore and hhat? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/9 "2006-05-22T19:48:02Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > As a matter of style, though, I think “from whence” should be avoided at all times, as it entails the incorrect use of a quaint word in an attempt to sound dignified. In other words it’s a genteelism. > > If you must use ‘whence’, then leave out the ‘from’. If the freaking King James Bible uses the ‘from whence’ construction, there is absolutely no possible argument that it is an ‘incorrect use’. You are free to argue that ‘whence’ without the ‘from’ is stylistically preferrable, but saying it is incorrect seems no more plausible than inveighing against split infinitives and sentence-ending prepositions. And that’s all I have to say about that at hhat time. (Wait, is ‘hhat time’ redundant?) ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/10 "2006-05-22T20:10:27Z")
It may or may be not germain to this discussion, and my information is incomplete, but the Latin origins of this grammatical form (whence I assume our modern version harkens 😉 ) do not use “from”; the prepositions carry the sense of place (here, there) in themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/11 "2006-05-22T20:23:33Z")
If “From Whence” was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/12 "2006-05-22T20:25:14Z")
But Jesus cannot help me hit a curveball… ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/13 "2006-05-22T20:28:13Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > If the freaking King James Bible uses the ‘from whence’ construction, there is absolutely no possible argument that it is an ‘incorrect use’. Of course. Because we already know everything in the Bible is correct. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/14 "2006-05-22T20:33:21Z")
This really bugged me when watching LotR; Elrond says “the Ring must be cast back into the fiery chasm _from whence_ it came.” But then again, they were speaking Westron, not English. Hmm… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/15 "2006-05-22T20:43:45Z")
This is one of the silliest bits of pedantry out there. “Whence” by itself does mean, “from where,” true. But the construction “from whence”, as noted by several people, has an ancient and honorable usage in the highest literary usage. Redundancy is not a _bete noire_ in language, but an essential part of its conveying of information. “I am” loads the information “this is in first person” onto both noun and verb. Quite simply, those who object are being pedantic in a manner not even appropriate to good English usage, inventing a “rule” without purpose or precedent. “Depart, and go [from]whence thou camest!” is good English with or without the “from.” I also don’t find the -ence and -ither forms archaic. They may be a trifle flowery for colloquial speech, but they do retain a specific purpose and meaning, and are used regularly if rarely in good formal English. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/16 "2006-05-22T21:10:21Z")
I don’t understand why some people say that “whence” is stylistically preferrable to “from whence.” “From whence” sounds much better, in my opinion. “the Ring must be cast back into the fiery chasm WHENCE it came” just doesn’t doesn’t sound as nice or prophetic. I assume that that is the same reason that it’s been used this whole time, and most writers who used it realized they were being redundant. The thing is, if your primary objective isn’t to sound cool, you shouldn’t be using the word “whence” at all. People who get upset by “from whence” should just shut up and say “from where.” ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/17 "2006-05-22T21:13:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Redundancy is not a bete noire in language, but an essential part of its conveying of information. “I am” loads the information “this is in first person” onto both noun and verb. Quite simply, those who object are being pedantic in a manner not even appropriate to good English usage, inventing a “rule” without purpose or precedent. Brilliant point. English is full of redundancy. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/18 "2006-05-22T21:21:18Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > People who get upset by “from whence” should just shut up and say “from where.” I do just say _“from where”_, but it doesn’t keep me from _hearing_ some pointy-ear say “from whence.” Irregardless, I wasn’t looking to start a style debate as much as I was just trying to confirm my understanding of meaning. And redundancy is not necessarily a good thing. I can’t forgive usage of “7:00 a.m. in the morning.” It just grates. “-ence” is an ending that carries as much grammar ass it does atmosphere. I can see using it to promote an atmosphere, but using with the redundant “from” is distracting and competes with the user’s attempt at clairity. At least if the speaker is addressing one of us pedants. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/19 "2006-05-22T21:22:44Z")
[Buddy]"…so much fuss over a couple of extra Ss!"[/Buddy] ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784/20 "2006-05-22T21:42:59Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > I do just say _“from where”_, but it doesn’t keep me from _hearing_ some pointy-ear say “from whence.” Irregardless, I wasn’t looking to start a style debate as much as I was just trying to confirm my understanding of meaning. I’m suprised that someone who has a problem with “from whence”, has no problem with “irregardless”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-or-from-whence/357784.md?page=2)