# Whence the meme: "How d'you like THEM apples!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 30, 2007, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132 "2007-01-30T16:56:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/1 "2007-01-30T16:56:12Z")
I hear and read this phrase used in a tone suggestive of payback and glee at vengeful justice being served. Sort of like Hamlet saying, “Tis sport to have the engineer hoist by his own petard”, but more rustic and American-sounding. So… Why “them apples” instead of “those apples”? Why apples and not pears? Is this a literary or movie reference? ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/2 "2007-01-30T17:05:09Z")
According to a [post](http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/5/messages/223.html) on The Phrase Finder: > [@](#): > > Used ironically since the late 1920s." according to the “Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings” by Gregory Y. Titelman. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/3 "2007-01-30T17:08:03Z")
Probably not the origin, but it likely gained wider use after it was used in [John Wayne’s\* Rio Bravo \* (1959)](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053221/quotes) > [@](#): > > [_Stumpy throws some dynamite at the warehouse and Chance shoots it, causing an explosion_] > **Stumpy** : Hey, Dude! How do ya like them apples? ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/4 "2007-01-30T17:08:55Z")
I hadn’t heard it until I saw **Good Will Hunting**. ---
**Author:** ![Charger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df788c/32.png) [@Charger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charger)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/5 "2007-01-30T17:11:27Z")
I have my own variation, in which I say “How do you like that apple?” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/6 "2007-01-30T18:16:50Z")
[QUOTE=Charger] I have my own variation, in which I say “How do you like that apple?” [/QUOTE] Yeah, but how often do you find yourself talking to Gwyneth Paltrow’s kid? ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/7 "2007-01-30T18:30:57Z")
[QUOTE=robardin] I hear and read this phrase used in a tone suggestive of payback and glee at vengeful justice being served. Sort of like Hamlet saying, “Tis sport to have the engineer hoist by his own petard”, but more rustic and American-sounding. So… Why “them apples” instead of “those apples”? Why apples and not pears? Is this a literary or movie reference? [/QUOTE] ::nitpick:: “hoist _ **with** _ his own petard” ::nitpick:: ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/8 "2007-01-31T01:01:54Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=334950&highlight=apples](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=334950&highlight=apples) That’s a link to the last time this one came up. It seems to come up with some frequency. And there’s a link to a previous one to that. ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/9 "2007-01-31T01:14:28Z")
[QUOTE=whole bean] ::nitpick:: “hoist _ **with** _ his own petard” ::nitpick:: [/QUOTE] ::nit nitpick:: Wouldn’t it be: “ **by** his own petard”? ::nit nitpick:: [sub]Does the ? go outside the quote?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/10 "2007-01-31T14:54:44Z")
[QUOTE=Scruloose] ::nit nitpick:: Wouldn’t it be: “ **by** his own petard”? ::nit nitpick:: [/quote] Not per Shakespeare himself: > [@](#): > > HAMLET > There’s letters seal’d: and my two schoolfellows, > Whom I will trust as I will adders fang’d, > They bear the mandate; they must sweep my way, > And marshal me to knavery. Let it work; > For 'tis the sport to have the engineer > **Hoist with his own petard:** and 't shall go hard > But I will delve one yard below their mines, > And blow them at the moon: O, 'tis most sweet, > When in one line two crafts directly meet. > This man shall set me packing: > I’ll lug the guts into the neighbour room. > Mother, good night. Indeed this counsellor > Is now most still, most secret and most grave, > Who was in life a foolish prating knave. > Come, sir, to draw toward an end with you. > Good night, mother. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/11 "2007-01-31T14:56:15Z")
[QUOTE=Scruloose] [sub]Does the ? go outside the quote?[/sub] [/QUOTE] No. It goes inside the quote (at least here in the US; I can’t speak for what those Brits do–well, except for the above Shakespeare quote). ---
**Author:** ![Silence\_of\_the\_clams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Silence\_of\_the\_clams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silence_of_the_clams)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/12 "2007-01-31T15:03:05Z")
For us not so well dressed in english lingo, what does “Hoist with his own petard” mean? Is it somekind of classical wedgie? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/13 "2007-01-31T15:14:05Z")
[QUOTE=Kotick] For us not so well dressed in english lingo, what does “Hoist with his own petard” mean? Is it somekind of classical wedgie? :dubious: [/QUOTE] A [petard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petard) was a medieval explosive device, commonly used to breach gates or walls when assaulting a castle. To be hoist by one’s own petard means you have fallen into your own trap. In this context, “hoist” means to be lifted, or blown up. ---
**Author:** ![Silence\_of\_the\_clams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Silence\_of\_the\_clams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silence_of_the_clams)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/14 "2007-01-31T15:19:30Z")
Thanks, ignorance fought. Carry on! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/15 "2007-01-31T15:19:33Z")
[QUOTE=Kotick] For us not so well dressed in english lingo, what does “Hoist with his own petard” mean? Is it somekind of classical wedgie? :dubious: [/QUOTE] A petard was an explosive charge, used in medeval times to blow up doors and ramparts on castles that were being attacked. As medeval seige engineers hadn’t figured out how to make remote controls, the practice was to place the charge, light it, and run the hell away before it blew up. Needless to say, occasionally you wouldn’t make it quite out of the blast radius before the charge went off, and you might end up “hoist” (thrown up into the air) by your own petard. As it makes a pretty amusing and apt metaphor for being undone by one’s own scheme, it passed into the language as a regular phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/16 "2007-02-01T21:38:41Z")
[QUOTE=toadspittle] Not per Shakespeare himself: [/QUOTE] Shakespeare - pffft. What’s he done for us lately? [Google fight!](http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22by+his+own+petard&word2=%22with+his+own+petard) > [@](#): > > “by his own petard” > 24,500 results > “with his own petard” > 19,300 results 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/17 "2007-02-01T21:51:29Z")
It’s a _meme_? Is anything \*not \*a meme these days? ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/18 "2007-02-02T00:31:35Z")
I can’t help wondering if Richard Dawkins is slightly horrified at the way geeks have latched on to his rather throwaway notion of “memes”, applying it to anything and everything. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/19 "2007-02-02T01:02:55Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] It’s a _meme_? Is anything \*not \*a meme these days? [/QUOTE] The term “meme” itself is now something of a meme. Why, I even use the word now when warming up my singing voice. “Meme, meme, meme, meme…” Joking aside, and as the OP who usd the term in the title of the post, I thought one of the core concepts of the term “meme” was to embody “something that is culturally transmitted but exhibits properties of genetic recombination and mutation”. And language use is usually cited as a primary means of transmitting memes. I would assume etymology is therefore essentially trying to do comparative memetics, to find a “common ancestor” just as one may compare genetic material between related species. It’s using “meme” to describe something like, “where’d people get the stereotype of the girls who like guys who are jerks to them” that doesn’t make sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132/20 "2007-02-02T01:45:24Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] It’s a _meme_? Is anything \*not \*a meme these days? [/QUOTE] Don’t look [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=405911) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-meme-how-dyou-like-them-apples/390132.md?page=2)