# Whence the noble title: Count? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 30, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375 "2009-03-30T23:47:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/1 "2009-03-30T23:47:25Z")
I say that “Count” comes from medieval times and refers to the only local who was educated in cyphers (mathematics to you yokels). His principle duty was to oversee transactions of a monetary nature (i.e. money exchanges, cattle trades, county fair sweet potato judging, etc.). Because the individual’s integrity had to be uncontestible, the title of “count” was laden with the benefits of nobility. **Evlkitty** thinks I’m nuts. But she hasn’t come up with anything either. So what’s the dope? And now, for your viewing pleasure. [Another count](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Wd-Q3F8KM). ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/2 "2009-03-30T23:52:39Z")
> [@Wikipedia](#): > > A count is a nobleman in European countries; The word count comes from French comte, itself from Latin comes—in its accusative comitem—meaning “companion”, and later “companion of the emperor, delegate of the emperor”. > **[Count](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count)** > > Count (feminine: countess) is a historical title of nobility in certain European countries, varying in relative status, generally of middling rank in the hierarchy of nobility. Especially in earlier medieval periods the term often implied not only a certain status, but also that the count had specific responsibilities or offices. The etymologically related English term "county" denoted the territories associated with some countships, but not all. > The title of count is typically not used in Engl... ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/3 "2009-03-30T23:52:56Z")
Accoding to wikipedia: A count is a nobleman in European countries; The word count comes from French comte, itself from Latin comes—in its accusative comitem—meaning “companion”, and later “companion of the emperor, delegate of the emperor”. > **[Count](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count)** > > Count (feminine: countess) is a historical title of nobility in certain European countries, varying in relative status, generally of middling rank in the hierarchy of nobility. Especially in earlier medieval periods the term often implied not only a certain status, but also that the count had specific responsibilities or offices. The etymologically related English term "county" denoted the territories associated with some countships, but not all. > Although the term count was not generally used i... ETA: D’oh! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/4 "2009-03-30T23:53:38Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > … **Evlkitty** thinks I’m nuts… I’m with the cat. Perhaps it comes from the unit of territory known as the _county_? From the American Heritage Dictionary: ETYMOLOGY: Middle English \*counte, \*from Old French _conte_, from Late Latin _comes, comit-_, occupant of any state office, from Latin, companion. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/5 "2009-03-30T23:59:17Z")
Count in the OP’s sense is later than count in the sense everybody else gives. > **[Search 'count' on etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=count)** > > Search results for 'count' on etymonline > [@](#): > > count (n.) > “title of nobility,” 1258, from [O.Fr](http://O.Fr). conte, from L. comitem (nom. comes) “companion, attendant,” the Roman term for a provincial governor, from com- “with” + ire “go.” The Anglo-Norm. term was used to render O.E. eorl, but the word was never truly naturalized and was mainly used with reference to foreign titles. > > count (v.) > 1341, from [O.Fr](http://O.Fr). conter “add up,” but also “tell a story,” from L. computare (see compute). Nuts doesn’t begun to describe what a silly bit of fake folk etymology IM made up. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/6 "2009-03-31T00:07:40Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Perhaps it comes from the unit of territory known as the _county_? Other way around. A county was governed by a count the same way a duchy used to be governed by a duke. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/7 "2009-03-31T00:12:06Z")
I have a hunch that **Inigo** may be a fan of the Vorkosigan Saga, a series of SF novels by Lois McMaster Bujold, in which the protagonist’s father is a Count – but the term evolved convergently on the planet Barrayar (the stories’ setting, and a world that went feudal when it was cut off for a few centuries by destruction of the wormhole link that was the only feasible way to travel to/from it) as a clipping of the Emperor’s Tax Accountants. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/8 "2009-03-31T00:40:18Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I have a hunch that **Inigo** may be a fan of the Vorkosigan Saga, a series of SF novels by Lois McMaster Bujold… you give me too much credit (heh). The mapcase’s assessment is the more accurate. I was just making that bit up. I’m terrible to live with because nobody ever knows if I’m joking. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/9 "2009-03-31T01:09:22Z")
Interesting tidbit: among English nobility, there are no counts, but there are countesses. The husband of a countess is an earl. Why no English Counts? Possibly because it could be pronounced in English as though the “o” was omitted. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/10 "2009-03-31T01:23:28Z")
or how about because there was a perfectly good English title, the eorl or earl, and William the Conquerer continued to use it for his nobles because he wanted to emphasise the continuity of his claim from Edward the Confessor, rather than introducing yet another Norman foreign innovation? ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/11 "2009-03-31T01:35:34Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Interesting tidbit: among English nobility, there are no counts, but there are countesses. The husband of a countess is an earl. > > Why no English Counts? Possibly because it could be pronounced in English as though the “o” was omitted. It’s because of the Scandinavian influence, the Anglo-Saxon nobles styled themselves earls after the title their leaders held in the old country. While the rank was somewhere in between a count and a duke, it originally had more of a warlike connotation and less of an administrative one, more like a general than a courtier. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/12 "2009-03-31T01:45:34Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > or how about because there was a perfectly good English title, the eorl or earl, and William the Conquerer continued to use it for his nobles because he wanted to emphasise the continuity of his claim from Edward the Confessor, rather than introducing yet another Norman foreign innovation? Well I’ll be. It appears you’re right. I was sure it was the other way 'round, since earl comes from “jarl” (pronounced “iarl”), which is a Danish/Norse word for chief, boss or honcho. And of course the Normans were descendants of Viking invaders (Norman itself being a derivation of Norseman/North Man). However, apparently those Vikings adopted the local Gallo-Roman language during their time in France, rather than keeping their own. Learn something new every day. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/13 "2009-03-31T02:53:29Z")
I’m guessing this question is part of your quest to avenge your swordsmith father, Domingo? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/14 "2009-03-31T03:36:53Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well I’ll be. It appears you’re right. 😛 Play it, Sam. > [@Kobal2](#): > > I was sure it was the other way 'round, since earl comes from “jarl” (pronounced “iarl”), which is a Danish/Norse word for chief, boss or honcho. It’s not necessarily the case that “earl” came from “jarl”. Anglo-Saxon had a cognate, “eorl” that was already in use at the time of the Norse invasions, as mentioned in this [entry in the Online Etymology Dictionary](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=earl): > [@](#): > > O.E. eorl “nobleman, warrior” (contrasted with ceorl “churl”), from P.Gmc. \*erlo-z, of uncertain origin. In Anglo-Saxon poetry, “a warrior, a brave man;” in later O.E., a Danish under-king (equivalent of O.N. jarl), then one of the viceroys under the Danish dynasty in England. After 1066 adopted as the equivalent of L. comes (see count (n.)). Earldom is from c.1123. See, for example, the Anglo-Saxon poem, the Battle of Maldon, which describes a battle between the Anglo-Saxons of eastern England, against an invading Norse force. The [Anglo-Saxon text](http://www8.georgetown.edu/departments/medieval/labyrinth/library/oe/texts/a9.html) uses the word “eorl” to describe Byrhtnoth, the leader of the Anglo-Saxons: > [@](#): > > þa þæt Offan mæg ærest onfunde, > þæt se eorl nolde yrhðo geþolian, [Modern English translation of the same lines:](http://www.airflow.net/maldon/thepoem.html) > [@](#): > > Then it was that Offa’s kinsman first perceived, > that the Earl would not endure cowardice, Of course, with all the inter-mingling of Anglo-Saxons and Norse, such as the Danelaw and the reign of the Scandanavian kings such as Cnut, I would suppose that it’s not possible to say with complete certainty that modern “earl” is descended solely from “eorl.” It may also be a descendant of “jarl”, since both groups would use and recognize the word as used by the other group. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/15 "2009-03-31T03:40:50Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Nuts doesn’t begun to describe what a silly bit of fake folk etymology IM made up. These seem to have a strange sort of enduring popularity. Is there some sort of thrill associated with getting people to buy a goofy story of how “cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey” originated? And is there any example of this sort of “gee whiz” etymology that is valid? (All the many I have encountered are 100% bogus.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/16 "2009-03-31T04:53:33Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > Of course, with all the inter-mingling of Anglo-Saxons and Norse, such as the Danelaw and the reign of the Scandanavian kings such as Cnut, I would suppose that it’s not possible to say with complete certainty that modern “earl” is descended solely from “eorl.” It may also be a descendant of “jarl”, since both groups would use and recognize the word as used by the other group. So what were Anglo-Saxon/Norse “earlesses” originally called? And why did the wife of an earl come to be called a “countess” while the earl stayed an earl? …Huh. [Wiki sez](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl), “The English never developed a feminine form of earl”. So what did they call the earl’s wife? “Mrs. Earl”? “The Earl’s Ladye”? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/17 "2009-03-31T05:17:33Z")
Apparently some variation on Lady – the one Earl’s Wife who remains famous to this day is Godgifu, the wife of Earl Leofric of Mercia, better known as Lady Godiva. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/18 "2009-03-31T05:31:49Z")
Thanks **Poly**. It appears that the Norse **did** call a jarl’s wife a jarless, or so says one GoogleBooks result I found. Didn’t catch on with the English, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/19 "2009-03-31T05:38:29Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > So what were Anglo-Saxon/Norse “earlesses” originally called? And why did the wife of an earl come to be called a “countess” while the earl stayed an earl? > > …Huh. [Wiki sez](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl), “The English never developed a feminine form of earl”. So what did they call the earl’s wife? “Mrs. Earl”? “The Earl’s Ladye”? Do they call the wife of a mayor “mayoress”? “Earl” was a job position. The earls themselves were addressed as “Lord”, and their wives as “Lady.” Incidentally, was “earl” the only title of nobility used by the Anglo-Saxons, other than “king”? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375/20 "2009-03-31T05:41:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Do they call the wife of a mayor “mayoress”? [They certainly do](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mayoress). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-noble-title-count/491375.md?page=2)