# Whence the story about MDs inflating Covid death stats? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [August 17, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-story-about-mds-inflating-covid-death-stats/949017 "2021-08-17T15:31:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-story-about-mds-inflating-covid-death-stats/949017/21 "2021-08-18T15:44:26Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Cite? I’ve seen this claimed over and over (and over) but not once by anyone who could provide a shred of proof. Which countries are doing it? I’d also like to know this and have yet to see any sort of reputable cite. India is a major case where the opposite is virtually certain - there are just over 400k COVID deaths by the official statistics but it’s suspected there are actually [several million](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/07/20/1018438334/indias-pandemic-death-toll-estimated-at-about-4-million-10-times-the-official-co). If anything, countries are under-reporting numbers to paint a rosier picture. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-story-about-mds-inflating-covid-death-stats/949017/22 "2021-08-18T18:26:28Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I’m not sure where his belief comes from. I would guess it comes from folks who are lying for political reasons, and he’s simply a useful idiot who is repeating the lies. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-story-about-mds-inflating-covid-death-stats/949017/23 "2021-08-18T18:41:37Z")
To elaborate on my previous post, Washington State at first reported all deaths where Covid was present as Covid-caused deaths, because there were so many deaths so fast that there wasn’t time to investigate. Remember that every place was understaffed and people were dying every day. And many of the deceased had incomplete death certificates. Then, when the state had the manpower (with the help of the WA National Guard), they went through and made corrections. I would guess that the same thing occurred in other states, as well. Not for nefarious political reasons, simply to try to keep track of things. From July 14, 2020, probably paywalled: > **[Washington state is adjusting how it counts COVID-19 deaths](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/washington-state-is-adjusting-how-it-counts-covid-19-deaths/)** > > The Washington state Department of Health is refining how it records deaths as it works to better track the coronavirus pandemic. > [@](#): > > The state Department of Health (DOH) is refining how it records deaths as it works to better track the coronavirus pandemic. > > So far, anytime someone with a positive COVID-19 diagnosis dies, DOH has been attributing those deaths to the virus, said Katie Hutchinson, health statistics manager for DOH. > > In the vast majority of those cases, COVID-19 was the cause of the person’s death. But sometimes, people with COVID-19 happen to die of something else. Or, they have incomplete death certificates, or the state isn’t immediately sure whether COVID-19 played a role. > > To differentiate among these, DOH on Monday began classifying deaths of people with COVID-19 into five categories: Confirmed, probable, pending, suspect and non-COVID-19-related. > > “We have slowly been working on our process to get this more detailed and provide more information,” Hutchinson said during a press conference Tuesday. > > DOH has removed deaths from the official tally when it determined COVID-19 was not the primary cause. Hutchinson said the agency plans to continue doing so. > [@](#): > > - A death is considered “confirmed” when the person has tested positive for COVID-19 and their death certificate states that the disease was the cause of death or a contributing factor. This group makes up 89% of COVID-19 deaths reported in the state as of 11:59 p.m. Sunday. > - Deaths are categorized as “probable” when the death certificate identifies COVID-19 as the cause or contributor to death but there is not a known positive test for the virus. About 80 deaths in Washington fit into this category. > - A death is considered “pending” when the person’s death certificate doesn’t list a cause of death or has yet to be completed. This category can include Washingtonians who died out of state. About 2% of Washington’s deaths are considered pending. > - “Suspect” deaths, which currently account for 5% of the state’s official death tally, describe COVID-positive people who died of natural causes and whose death certificate doesn’t mention the virus. When this happens, DOH has to investigate and determine whether COVID-19 played a role in the person’s death. > - Non-COVID-19 deaths are those where a COVID-positive person definitely died of something unrelated to the virus — for instance, suicides, overdoses, homicides or accidents. These were 4% of the deaths recorded by the state as of 11:59 p.m. Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-story-about-mds-inflating-covid-death-stats/949017/24 "2021-08-18T21:23:23Z")
What is a counter rebuttal to this, if one believes the original argument? > **[Tracking covid-19 excess deaths across countries](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker)** > > In many parts of the world, official death tolls undercount the total number of fatalities ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-story-about-mds-inflating-covid-death-stats/949017/25 "2021-08-19T11:24:23Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > What is a counter rebuttal to this, if one believes the original argument? > > [Tracking covid-19 excess deaths across countries](https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker) “That’s just one website. This is something we’ve been hearing over and over again from many different sources.” ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-story-about-mds-inflating-covid-death-stats/949017/26 "2021-08-19T11:39:26Z")
When my stepmother died of COVID in NYC in April 2020, I was terrified that my then 79-year-old, unvaccinated, asthmatic father would get it, and that it would be a death sentence. He had no symptoms, and very few tests were available, so he went home and quarantined on medical advice. It never even occurred to me that he had an asymptomatic case, but months later he went for some completely unrelated bloodwork, and his doctor did an antibody test and discovered that indeed, he’d had an asymptomatic COVID infection. If he could, anyone can. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-story-about-mds-inflating-covid-death-stats/949017/27 "2021-08-19T21:07:43Z")
People, lots of people, are saying that The Economist is fake news. Believe you me. It’s sad. Do hospitals get paid more if Covid is involved? No, they do not. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-story-about-mds-inflating-covid-death-stats/949017/28 "2021-08-19T21:19:48Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Do hospitals get paid more if Covid is involved? No, they do not. Is it that simple, though – at least in the US ? It doesn’t seem that way: > **[Fact check: Hospitals get paid more if patients listed as COVID-19, on...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/)** > > Hospitals are paid more for Medicare patients with COVID-19, but a senator who first said that says he doesn't think the system is being gamed. > **[Are Doctors and Hospitals Paid More for COVID-19 Patients?](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/medicare-hospitals-covid-patients/)** > > Questions were raised on cable news about whether hospitals have financial incentives to diagnose patients with COVID-19. The salient issue, though, is the **costs** associated with treating COVID patients, and how much each of these healthcare institutions (assuming, here) is losing on every COVID patient that ends up in the ICU/on a ventilator, **both before and after** the incremental COVID reimbursement. I’d like our major health care institutions to stay viable. Of course, I’d also like Universal Health Care, and may be willing to revisit the whole thing _in that scenario_ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-story-about-mds-inflating-covid-death-stats/949017/29 "2021-09-08T18:45:18Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Of course, I’d also like Universal Health Care, and may be willing to revisit the whole thing _in that scenario_ That won’t help, we get the same stupid stories up here in Canada. Once people start making up their own facts, there’s really no reason not to just keep making them more and more outrageous. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-story-about-mds-inflating-covid-death-stats/949017/30 "2021-09-10T12:17:03Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Of course, I’d also like Universal Health Care, and may be willing to revisit the whole thing _in that scenario_ I think Universal Health Care would help by allowing people to have a relationship with their medical practitioner. There are a lot of people who don’t have a primary care practitioner per se, but utilize urgent care centers, emergency rooms and “doc in the box” medical practices because the cost of regular medical care is prohibitive. These people don’t trust their physicians because they don’t know their physicians, so when some doctor they never saw before advises them to get vaccinated it’s pretty easy to ignore them. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-story-about-mds-inflating-covid-death-stats/949017/31 "2021-09-10T19:56:33Z")
Not conflating this… > **[Unvaccinated people were 11 times more likely to die of covid-19, CDC report...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/09/10/moderna-most-effective-covid-vaccine-studies/)** > > The Moderna shot is the most effective, says another study, the largest to date in the United States to assess the real-world effectiveness of the vaccines. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whence-the-story-about-mds-inflating-covid-death-stats/949017.md?page=1)