# Where and when did the "scary little girl" thing originate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 24, 2006, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928 "2006-09-24T09:57:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/21 "2006-09-24T19:57:22Z")
_Night Of The Living Dead_’s Karen might have a lot to do with it. > **[Night of the Living Dead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Living_Dead)** > > Night of the Living Dead is a 1968 American independent horror film that introduced the flesh-eating ghouls that would become synonymous with the term "zombie". The story follows seven people trapped in a farmhouse in rural Pennsylvania, under assault by reanimated corpses. The movie was directed, photographed, and edited by George A. Romero, written by Romero and John Russo, and produced by Russell Streiner and Karl Hardman. It stars Duane Jones and Judith O'Dea. > Having gained experience cr... ---
**Author:** ![peri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/67e7ee/32.png) [@peri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peri)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/22 "2006-09-24T20:17:49Z")
After Rhoda in _The Bad Seed_, best/worst film “scary little girl” is Bonnie from [The Godsend](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080802/) (1980). The book, by Bernard Taylor, is even more horrific. The character is not repulsive or deranged looking, nor is she the “rip your guts out” type that’s shown up in films lately. She’s described as angelic and sweet. Adults love her; so do the other children, for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/23 "2006-09-24T20:20:40Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] I’ll list some of the movies I’m talking about: … Grudge. [/QUOTE] Where is there a scary little girl in The Grudge? I’ve only seen the first half hour of the American version (and after that I’m finding myself less than entirely inclined to bother with the rest), but there is no scary little girl in the first 3 Ju-On movies (which The Grudge remade)…a scary grown woman, a little boy who’s creepy about half the time he’s on screen, but there’s no scary little girls until the 4th movie when Kyoko gives birth to the Grudge-Baby, at the end. (From what I’ve seen, the American sequel has nothing to do with the Japanese.) Actually, your description of the ‘scary little girls’ matches Kayako quite well. But little girl, she is not. The look of Kayako, or Sadako or other similar spirits in Japanese horror, is based on the depictions of ghosts from ukiyo-e prints and kabuki theater. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/24 "2006-09-24T20:42:39Z")
[http://users.aol.com/emarko/gorey.html](http://users.aol.com/emarko/gorey.html) It might be a little older than you think… Gorey’s work is at the very least a neo-Victorian sort of thing. The counterpart to Alice in Wonderland. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/25 "2006-09-24T21:48:32Z")
There was that Twilight Zone episode with the evil doll. I don’t remember what it’s called. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/26 "2006-09-24T21:54:33Z")
Telly Savalas is in that one, playing the mean father. GREAT episode. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/27 "2006-09-24T22:08:12Z")
The idea of malevolent children is an old one in European folklore. [Changelings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling): > [@](#): > > In European folklore and folk belief, a changeling is the offspring of a fairy, troll, elf or other legendary creature that has been secretly left in exchange for a human child. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/28 "2006-09-24T22:43:48Z")
[QUOTE=Talon Karrde] There was that Twilight Zone episode with the evil doll. I don’t remember what it’s called. [/QUOTE] The episode was called \*[Living Doll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Doll_%28The_Twilight_Zone%29) \*. In the Twilight Zone episode the doll is called “Talky Tina”; she was based on the “Chatty Cathy” doll made by Mattel. ---
**Author:** ![AveDementia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@AveDementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AveDementia)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/29 "2006-09-25T01:23:21Z")
I’m surprised no one has mentioned Alia from Dune. She was a scary little girl. Basically an adult in a child’s body and she killed several times (like a good Fremen child). I also thought of the movie “Don’t Look Now”. Of course the little girl in the red raincoat turned out to be something more scary than a little girl, but mood of the whole movie was really creepy. ---
**Author:** ![bundykala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@bundykala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bundykala)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/30 "2006-09-25T02:04:24Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] I’m surprised that nobody has yet mentioned _The Exorcist_ or _Poltergeist_. I’m sure they weren’t the first, but they seem to have been the movies which firmly established the cliche in the mainstream of American movies. [/QUOTE] The Exorcist isn’t really about a creepy little girl - it’s about an apparently cute and innocent little girl who is possessed by the devil. It’s the devil that’s meant to be scary, not the girl herself. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/31 "2006-09-25T02:26:42Z")
[QUOTE=Silver Pageant] Ask her if she’s seen It’s Alive. Seriously, most underrated b-movie. Larry Cohen is amaaazing. [/QUOTE] She says Larry Cohen’s movies are, as you suggest, “among the best of B-movie horror.” Also, there are apparently two sequels to _It’s Alive_ that are worth watching if you liked the original. We discussed the creepy-little-girl phenomenon a bit today, and while we both agreed that the notion probably goes way back beyond _The Bad Seed_ (thanks for the link, **spoke-** ), she says that if one is specifically looking for its first appearance in American cinema, _The Bad Seed_ is probably it. By the way, interested parties can find lots of horror-movie info, news, and a message board at [http://www.dreadcentral.com/](http://www.dreadcentral.com/). ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/32 "2006-09-25T02:56:20Z")
[QUOTE=bundykala] The Exorcist isn’t really about a creepy little girl - it’s about an apparently cute and innocent little girl who is possessed by the devil. It’s the devil that’s meant to be scary, not the girl herself. [/QUOTE] See, I think the girl herself is very scary, and the reason for me is that she represents innocence horrifically twisted. The innocence and perceived “angelic nature” of children, especially cute little girls, are a cultural given, and it is deeply unnatural and disturbing to see that innocence turned to evil. Children should not be evil or untrustworthy. ---
**Author:** ![bundykala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@bundykala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bundykala)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/33 "2006-09-25T04:22:00Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] … Children should not be evil or untrustworthy. [/QUOTE] But they are. Every one of them. Whether they are possessed by the devil or not. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/34 "2006-09-25T04:22:33Z")
It’s a minor FEAR spoiler, but the little girl there: Isn’t really a little girl. It’s a big, creepy dead woman who just manifests that way early on because that was how she was when she was used/killed. I think the RING is the first _modern_ instance of the “creepy dark child” phenom, characterized by a young girl figure with dark forward hanging long hair mostly obscuring the face, and her approaching you slowly/jumpily. Creepy kids in general have been around almost as long as horror as a genre. FEAR had a lot of a great execution as a horror game, but the terribly repetative level design really ruined things. Almost as bad as the “alien building/ship” sections of HALO. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/35 "2006-09-25T06:01:16Z")
Rhoda is my favorite evil little girl. I’ve always been fascinated by **The Bad Seed**. [QUOTE=Ukulele Ike] Nahhhhhh…he means [The Innocents](http://imdb.com/title/tt0055018/), based on Hanry James _Turn of the Screw_. It was the little _boy_ who was freaky in that one, though – also the dead governess, floating among the reeds… Damn good spooky movie, even though there are really only two apparitions in it. [/QUOTE] This is off-topic, but you may be interested in this since you like the movie. Kate Bush wrote a song called “The Infant Kiss” based on scenes she remembered seeing from that movie when she saw it as a child ([lyrics](http://gaffa.org/sensual/l_tik.html)). In the mid-80’s my husband (and I) made a [video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D1n6zxgvkI) to the song using scenes from the movie (taken from a television broadcast). He recently updated the look of it using the widescreen DVD. [Here is the updated version](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUTkdw4C0XA) if you’re interested in seeing it. He sent the original version to Kate and she liked it so much she called him from England! I was at work, darn all the luck. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/36 "2006-09-25T06:12:02Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] > **[News, Politics, Sports, Mail & Latest Headlines - AOL.com](https://www.aol.com/)** > > Discover the latest breaking news in the U.S. and around the world — politics, weather, entertainment, lifestyle, finance, sports and much more. It might be a little older than you think… Gorey’s work is at the very least a neo-Victorian sort of thing. The counterpart to Alice in Wonderland. [/QUOTE] You do realize that Gorey was an American who began writing in the 50s? The Gashleycrumb Tinies dates from 1963. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/37 "2006-09-25T09:00:32Z")
Perhaps [this](http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/835.html) is an appropriate 19th century source. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/38 "2006-09-25T10:22:41Z")
I’m aware of the date of Gorey’s work, I was pointing out that he carries on a tradition of child death and fragility that is clearly victorian-inspired. Tuberculosis and all that. I’ve got a lovely story about a mother and child ghost, by Elizabeth Gaskell somewhere, from the period. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/39 "2006-09-25T15:31:41Z")
Eve’s first daughter. _All_ little girls have their “scary little girl” moments. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928/40 "2006-09-25T16:05:03Z")
If you want to see the epitome of scarey little girls, watch “The Little Girl Who Lives Down the Lane” starring Jodie Foster. :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-and-when-did-the-scary-little-girl-thing-originate/373928.md?page=3)