# Where are all the gay people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2001, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659 "2001-01-12T06:05:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/21 "2005-04-15T00:34:21Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > This is a pretty old thread… Over 4 years old. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/22 "2005-04-15T00:34:54Z")
People in history by default are str8. :dubious: They are also bt default male and white, too. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/23 "2005-04-15T00:39:22Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > They are also bt default male and white, too. :rolleyes: Like Pocahontas or Shaka Zulu or Gandhi or Genghis [KHAAAN!](http://www.khaaan.com/) or Ho Chi Minh or Queen Elizabeth or any other of the non-white and/or non-male people that in many history books? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/24 "2005-04-15T01:18:44Z")
Gandhi was white, unless you happen to be posting from pre-Mandela South Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/25 "2005-04-15T01:20:43Z")
Well, of course Genghis Khan was white. [Don’t you watch the movies?](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049092/) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/26 "2005-04-15T01:30:48Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Gandhi was white, unless you happen to be posting from pre-Mandela South Africa. I sense a trap, but I was referring to [this Gandhi,](http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/virtual/portrait/gandhi.jpg) not [the other one.](http://www.filmfocus.co.uk/images/newsthumbs/208.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/27 "2005-04-15T01:51:34Z")
It’s interesting how times have changed. When the Lord of the Rings movie mania hit full swing, I would peruse the fansights in search of rumors about the films. On them you could find endless chatboard threads discussing how very, very queer Frodo and Sam were. Despite the fact they were the inventions of a rather conservative Catholic Luddite who would probably have regarded Queer Eye as a Sign of the Apocalypse. Despite the fact Sam clearly had a robust interest in good ole’ hobbit nookie, as the brood of little hobbitses he sired with the lusty collaboration of one hot little Rosie Cotton clearly demonstrates. Dunno about these Japanimation heros, but Frodo and Sam were _just very good friends_, OK? Yeah, they loved each other, but not _that way_, awright? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/28 "2005-04-15T02:10:04Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > I sense a trap, but I was referring to [this Gandhi,](http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/virtual/portrait/gandhi.jpg) not [the other one.](http://www.filmfocus.co.uk/images/newsthumbs/208.jpg) Depends on your definition of “white.” In the earliest racial classification schemes northern Indians at least were classed as caucasian. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/29 "2005-04-15T02:10:11Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > I sense a trap, but I was referring to [this Gandhi,](http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/virtual/portrait/gandhi.jpg) not [the other one.](http://www.filmfocus.co.uk/images/newsthumbs/208.jpg) Actually, Ben Kingsley is half Indian, half Jewish. His real name is Krishna Bhanji. [Cite.](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001426/bio) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/30 "2005-04-15T02:13:18Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Depends on your definition of “white.” In the earliest racial classification schemes northern Indians at least were classed as caucasian. Oh and Gandhi, coming from Gujarat ( northwestern coast ), would almost certainly have been so classified by early racialist ( not necessarily _racist_ ) ethnographers. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/31 "2005-04-15T02:18:51Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > I sense a trap, but I was referring to [this Gandhi,](http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/virtual/portrait/gandhi.jpg) not [the other one.](http://www.filmfocus.co.uk/images/newsthumbs/208.jpg) No trap. As others have noted, if “race” means anything besides skin color, the “Indo-Aryan” (yeah, yuk, but it’s the established term in antithesis to Dravidian and Munda) peoples of most of India fall into the Caucasian group. While we don’t need to get into another “three races is an erroneous categorization” discussion, if we accept the historical usage Gandhi is as Caucasian as Dag Hammarskjold. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/32 "2005-04-15T02:29:55Z")
What about Buchanan? The only president who never married. The case for him being gay is way stronger than that flap about Lincoln. However, John Updike, in _Memories of the Ford Administration_, theorizes that Buchanan failed to marry because of a broken heart, because his fiancée died before they could marry (and Updike further suggests she was planning to break it off, and he subtly hints that she accidentally committed suicide with an overdose of laudanum). How romantic, perfect for an author of novels. But if I had to pick one gay president, it would be Buchanan for sure. **Guinastasia** , did you know that Rasputin was a member of a Russian sex-cult? He was a notorious seducer of women. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/33 "2005-04-15T02:45:58Z")
Have you looked under the couch cushions? Four years is a pretty long time for them to be lost… ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/34 "2005-04-15T02:52:08Z")
No, under the cushions is where I keep Jesus. I don’t get why everyone is so confussed when I respond honestly to the question of if I had found Jesus.😕 Oh, and on the new topic, it’s interesting to note that the aborigenes of Japan, the [Ainu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu) are often called “Caucasoid” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/35 "2005-04-15T02:57:16Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > It’s interesting how times have changed. > > When the Lord of the Rings movie mania hit full swing, I would peruse the fansights in search of rumors about the films. On them you could find endless chatboard threads discussing how very, very queer Frodo and Sam were. Despite the fact they were the inventions of a rather conservative Catholic Luddite who would probably have regarded Queer Eye as a Sign of the Apocalypse. Despite the fact Sam clearly had a robust interest in good ole’ hobbit nookie, as the brood of little hobbitses he sired with the lusty collaboration of one hot little Rosie Cotton clearly demonstrates. > > Dunno about these Japanimation heros, but Frodo and Sam were _just very good friends_, OK? Yeah, they loved each other, but not _that way_, awright? Dude, did you even WATCH that movie? Sam obviously swings both ways. 😉 **Johanna** , yep, indeedy, that he was. He was also rumored to be…uh, how should I put this-very, very gifted. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/36 "2005-04-15T03:16:54Z")
> [@IzzyR](#): > > I’m no expert, but the several times that I’ve seen evidence laid out for the homosexuality of various historical figures it has been extremely speculative, based on supposition rather than hard facts, and often in apparent ignorance of cultural norms of different eras. Examples of this include Alexander Hamilton and Abraham Lincoln. I think a good deal of this comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of history. It’s foolhardy in the extreme to look simply at actions and judge them by modern standards because our culture has changed so much. For example, one of the “homosexual” activites attributed to Abe was sleeping with another man. Anyone with basic knowledge of the times can tell you that this was an extremely common practice-- hell, it was less common to have a bed all to yourself. People thought of beds the way we do couches-- not necessarily as a private sphere (the concept of privacy in of itself wasn’t well established.) The Victorian era was also one of purple prose and over-dramitization of emotional scenes. When a writer states that “He clasped me to his breast”, the writer could be describing a simple hug between friends. They tended to make things sound more passionate than they were. Thirdly, in Lincloln’s case, I think that speculation about his sexuality has more to do with Mary Lincoln than anything else. That woman inspired more hatred than any first lady other than Hillary-- and was equally underserved. It’s my opinion that a lot of the talk of Lincoln’s “lost love” Ann Rutledge and potential homosexual lovers is a denial that Lincoln could have seriously loved Mary. To people who despise her, it’s unfathomable that The Great Emancipator could have chosen to spend his life with _that._ No, no, there must have been some tradgedy or some dark secret which kept him from what he really wanted, so he had to settle for Mary. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/37 "2005-04-15T03:41:44Z")
> [@Hamish](#): > > It’s far from the first time I’ve seen this: heterosexual people, who are otherwise quite accepting of gays and lesbians and gay rights, falling over their feet to deny that famous people and beloved fictional characters could be anything than 100% heterosexual. I’m guilty of this, I admit. Often times I have to have someone throw a brick at my head with a note wrapped around it saying “Gay” before I’ll get it. I believe this is mainly a combination of two things. One, I look at the world through heterosexual eyes and I tend to think everyone else I meet is heterosexual until shown otherwise. The other part is that characters in movies, television, and books don’t generally act naturally so I’m not sure if there’s suppose to be some subtext or whether it’s just poorly written. > [@](#): > > Is this just ignorance? Homophobia? Where do we get our belief that famous people we like and favourite characters could not possibly be gay? Because being gay is wrong. Well, at least that’s been the popular opinion throughout a large portion of western history. If the powers that be view homosexuality as a deviant evil then you wouldn’t want to mention the sexual orientation of great men and women. After a while people get so used to omitting certain details that it just becomes second nature. > [@](#): > > Historians are naturally cautious about everything. But if you suggest President Roosevelt was sleeping around on his wife, you get answers like “maybe,” “probably,” or “unlikely.” Suggest Eleanor Roosevelt was sleeping with Lorena Hickok, most people search desperately for evidence that they were just good friends. Since homosexuality has been considered a perversion by many it has also held value as a tool to attack rivals. The Greeks would insult other men by saying they “took it up the ass” and even in modern times H. Clinton is “accused” of being a lesbian by some of her more virulant critics. Sometimes it isn’t easy to weed out the truths from the slander. Ask poor Catherine the Great about her horse some time. > [@](#): > > I’m worried about what this means. And as a gay men, I’m worried that society seems to be struggling to erase gays and lesbians from history. Anything anyone has to say on the subject interests me greatly. If anything people are becoming more aware. I don’t know if my parents ever learned that Julius Ceasar was a “husband to every wife and wife to every man.” I guess we’ll have to wait 20-30 years and see. Marc ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/38 "2005-04-15T06:01:39Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > The Victorian era was also one of purple prose and over-dramitization of emotional scenes. When a writer states that “He clasped me to his breast”, the writer could be describing a simple hug between friends. They tended to make things sound more passionate than they were. I dunno. Sometimes it seems like they could have written “Clutching my palpitating body against his, he transfixed me to my very core with his rampant organ of lust” and someone would say, “That’s just how men TALKED in those days!” ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/39 "2005-04-15T06:31:50Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Gandhi was white, unless you happen to be posting from pre-Mandela South Africa. He was actually rather tanned. “White” if you consider “white” to be identical in meaning to “Caucasoid,” which I don’t. Albinoes are white, even if they’re from Polynesian stock. Finns are white. Anthony Fedorov is white. “Caucasoids” are often olive, tan, or brown (& Nubians, as I recall, are both Caucasoid & black). ---
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659/40 "2005-04-15T08:50:20Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > One, I look at the world through heterosexual eyes and I tend to think everyone else I meet is heterosexual until shown otherwise. Hmmm. I’m guilty of the opposite, to be frank. I look at the world through gay eyes and somehow assume every man is gay unless proven otherwise. Unfortunately, I am proven otherwise too often to my liking. My gaydar is broken. I have a wishdar - instead of detecting gay men, the wishdar indicates that men I wish were gay are gay (unless proven otherwise, and I am proven otherwise too often to my liking, to beat a dead horse). But I think the fundamental issue is that one cannot really classify people into gay or straight. Sexuality is a bit more fluid: it defies being categorized into two or three categories. WRS - what if Catherine died because of a stallion of a man instead of just a stallion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-gay-people/49659.md?page=3)