# Where are all the militant Muslims? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2012, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837 "2012-07-30T09:46:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/81 "2012-08-02T14:28:06Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > But as pointed out, Sweden, despite being really fairly innocuous all in all, still has local Jihadists and Al Quaeda has advised Jihadists to strike at their home countries if possible. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > It’s pat, overly simplistic boilerplate to claim that Jihadists “hate us for our freedoms” or “hate us because of our foreign policy”. Things are rarely that simple, especially at the intersection of religion and politics. And ignoring that there is an actual cultural component to some strains of Jihadism is willful ignorance. Okay, I’ll buy that. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/82 "2012-08-02T15:49:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The number of Muslims who “hate us for our freedom” is zero. No Muslim has ever said, “you know, those Americans are just _too fucking free!_” Yes, that’s a silly holdover from the Cold War. Like alot of the “war on terror” is. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/83 "2012-08-02T15:51:17Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Great job trying to condense my post down to “the jews did it” tin foil hat type nonsense. I’m black, so jews are white to me. I don’t try to break it down any finer than that, so don’t try to put that jew hating stuff on me. Why do you hate white people? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/84 "2012-08-02T17:18:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Hmm. I see what you’re getting at with that, but this sort of seems to me like folks who say rape is about power, not about sex. Rape is, I believe, often about power to the victim and about sex to the rapist (who is willing to use power to get sex). > > In this case, while Van Gogh was drawing the cartoons to exercise freedom of speech, I think the hatred of the murderer wasn’t, “I hate that your government gives you the freedom to do that!” so much as it was, “You’re a total asshole for doing that!” It was his deeds that led to his horrifying murder, not a hatred of the concept of freedom. To the victim it was about freedom; to the murderer it was about something else. > > But that may be splitting hairs. This post is a testament to the pathetic state of debates in GD when a particular topic comes along. Every little rhetorical device such as diversion, distraction, interruption and imposition is used to delay, and in some cases totally obfuscate the point. What you call “splitting hairs” is a deliberate and conscious technique. That there are people who are willing to suffer through this is nothing short of amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/85 "2012-08-02T17:20:45Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > This post is a testament to the pathetic state of debates in GD when a particular topic comes along. > > Every little rhetorical device such as diversion, distraction, interruption and imposition is used to delay, and in some cases totally obfuscate the point. > > What you call “splitting hairs” is a deliberate and conscious technique. > > That there are people who are willing to suffer through this is nothing short of amazing. 😕 I think you have a problem with what I’m saying, but I really can’t tell what that problem is. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/86 "2012-08-02T17:24:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In this case, while Van Gogh was drawing the cartoons to exercise freedom of speech, I think the hatred of the murderer wasn’t, “I hate that your government gives you the freedom to do that!” so much as it was, “You’re a total asshole for doing that!” It was his deeds that led to his horrifying murder, not a hatred of the concept of freedom. To the victim it was about freedom; to the murderer it was about something else. Sounds like the Chik-Fil-A controversy. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/87 "2012-08-02T17:32:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 😕 I think you have a problem with what I’m saying, but I really can’t tell what that problem is. No problem at all. Just an observation that I can restate. RNATB’s original comment stood on its own and everyone perfectly understood what he meant without unnecessary “hair splitting” on proper semantics of the English language over the course of half a page of comments. That you – and others – “fell” for that diversionary technique and still got nothing out of it is what’s baffling to me. Please note - I am aware that I may be the only one who “sees” this so we can leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/88 "2012-08-02T17:41:04Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > RNATB’s original comment stood on its own and everyone perfectly understood what he meant without unnecessary “hair splitting” on proper semantics of the English language over the course of half a page of comments. That you – and others – “fell” for that diversionary technique and still got nothing out of it is what’s baffling to me. Ah, I see what you’re saying. I thought you were calling my post a pathetic use of diversion, distraction, and obfuscation. Sorry for the misunderstanding! That said, I disagree :). RNATB’s comment, on its own, was wrong, and although I wish **FinnAgain** had corrected him a bit more gently, the substance of his correction was very interesting to me. I was unfamiliar with Qutb, and I learned something new by reading the correction. The “hairsplitting” I was talking about in the post you described is on whether hating someone’s specific exercise of a freedom is the same as hating the freedom itself. Even that hairsplitting is an interesting question to me, not something diversionary at all–see my post about the Phelps clan as an example, one that raises the issue of how we Westerners feel when someone is blaspheming against things we hold sacred (grieving at funerals and respecting the military). I think exploring these questions is, if not exactly on-point with the OP, still in the framework of an interesting conversation. And in any case I think it’s generally helpful to phrase things precisely: RNATB’s comment did ignore a very important part of the militant Islam schtick (to use a precise word of my own 🙂 ), and that’s definitely something worth bringing up in the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/89 "2012-08-02T18:40:40Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > **Where are the militant Muslims?** > > Right [here](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2727330/). > > \*"Religious opposition by Muslim fundamentalists is a major factor in the failure of immunization programs against polio in Nigeria (2), Pakistan (3) and Afghanistan (4). This religious conflict in the tribal areas of Pakistan is one of the biggest hindrances to effective polio vaccination. Epidemiologists have detected transmission of wild poliovirus from polio-endemic districts in Afghanistan, most of which are located in the southern region of this country bordering Pakistan, to tribal areas of Pakistan (4). This transmission has resulted in new cases of polio in previously polio-free districts. The local Taliban have issued fatwas denouncing vaccination as an American ploy to sterilize Muslim populations. Another common superstition spread by extremists is that vaccination is an attempt to avert the will of Allah. " Sounds like the loons over here who think the HPV vaccine will make kids have sex, and mercury causes autism. ---
**Author:** ![tullsterx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tullsterx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tullsterx)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/90 "2012-08-02T18:47:34Z")
OK, OK. . . There are no Muslim terrorists! You’ve convinced me. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/91 "2012-08-02T19:07:20Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > OK, OK. . . There are no Muslim terrorists! You’ve convinced me. :rolleyes: Yeah, nobody said that. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/92 "2012-08-02T19:10:46Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > OK, OK. . . There are no Muslim terrorists! You’ve convinced me. :rolleyes: I dont think anyone made such a claim. The discussion is about what are their motivations, how organized they are in US and are they any more of a threat on US soil than some mentally ill dude who dyed his hair. But congrats on following the discussion too closely. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/93 "2012-08-02T19:18:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Tone it down. This also belongs in the Pit, as you said, not in this forum. I hear and obey. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/94 "2012-08-02T19:42:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, I’ll buy that. Good on you, then. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It seems to me that RNATB was incorrect in his phrasing, but not deliberately or horribly so; he was trying to get at a valid, defensible idea, but just didn’t include enough qualifications. It’s perfectly appropriate to correct such statements when they appear. Yep. But I still don’t think you’re taking context into account, exactly. During the Cartoon Riots, for example, the calls were very specifically to stop people’s ability to publish (unflattering) drawings of Mohammed as it’s against Islamic precepts to do so. “You can have freedom of speech and freedom of religion… as long as you don’t use your freedom of speech to do something prohibited by my religion.” is, I’d argue, an attack on both freedom of speech and religion. [As for Van Gogh](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4716909.stm)? > [@](#): > > Bouyeri had told the court he had acted out of religious conviction. > > Clutching a copy of the Koran, he said that “the law compels me to chop off the head of anyone who insults Allah and the prophet”. That, to me, certainly smacks of an opposition to religious freedom and freedom of speech. Not just “you said something rude” but, “you violated the edicts of my religion, so you must die.” The difference between that and, say, someone who punches a Phelps in the face is premeditation. Anybody can be annoyed by a jerk and react poorly.[Bouyeri apparently acted with premeditated, carried out a ritualistic killing, and certified that he would do that same again to anybody who criticized Islam.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4675421.stm) > [@](#): > > Mohammed Bouyeri, 27, said he acted out of his religious beliefs and that he would do “exactly the same” if he were ever set free. > > Prosecutors say Mr Bouyeri killed Mr Van Gogh in a ritualistic murder committed in the name of radical Islam. > > The November 2004 murder shocked the Netherlands and raised ethnic tensions. > > Mr Bouyeri, who has dual Dutch-Moroccan nationality, could face a life sentence if he is convicted. > > “I take complete responsibility for my actions. I acted purely in the name of my religion,” he told the court in Amsterdam. > > “I can assure you that one day, should I be set free, I would do exactly the same, exactly the same,” he added. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And in any case I think it’s generally helpful to phrase things precisely: RNATB’s comment did ignore a very important part of the militant Islam schtick (to use a precise word of my own 🙂 ), and that’s definitely something worth bringing up in the conversation. That’s what did it for me. Nuance is important, especially when dealing with a subject as complex as the interplay of various Jihadist strains with various western/middle eastern nations, cultures, ideologies, etc… The addition of the specific bit about how there have been “zero” Muslims who’ve ever hated us because of the freedoms we enjoy was a bridge too far, and debates are never well served by rhetoric that significantly overreaches its bounds. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/95 "2012-08-02T20:13:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That, to me, certainly smacks of an opposition to religious freedom and freedom of speech. Not just “you said something rude” but, “you violated the edicts of my religion, so you must die.” The difference between that and, say, someone who punches a Phelps in the face is premeditation. Anybody can be annoyed by a jerk and react poorly.[Bouyeri apparently acted with premeditated, carried out a ritualistic killing, and certified that he would do that same again to anybody who criticized Islam.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4675421.stm) I’m not sure I’m seeing the relevance of premeditation here. Are you saying that someone who says, “I swear to God, I will beat the shit out of Phelps if he comes to my son’s funeral” and who then does so has demonstrated that they hate our freedoms? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/96 "2012-08-02T20:19:15Z")
Someone who’s decided that freedom of speech goes too far when it’s offensive is, indeed, against freedom of speech to a degree. “You can say whatever you want as long as you don’t offend anybody” is an anti-free speech position. If you want to slice it really thin, I suppose we could say that some people hate the ability to freely exercise freedom of speech when it touches on religious issues, but I don’t think that adds any real clarity to the debate as the thing that the extremists hate is that you can use freedom of speech to criticize religion int he first place. Imagine, instead, a situation where it isn’t dealing with the Phelps’ who are assholes and isn’t simply punching someone in the nose. Let’s say someone premeditates the murder of a high school biology teacher for teaching evolution. They state, in their own words, that they did so because teaching that questions the Bible and if released from prison, they’ll hunt down more biology teachers and kill them. In that situation, it’s fairly clear that they oppose secular religious freedoms and the rights of children to get an education that isn’t governed by their religious precepts. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/97 "2012-08-02T20:26:33Z")
Interesting. It seems to me that the Phelps-puncher is on the same continuum as the religious killers; do you agree? In both cases, the perp thinks freedom of speech has gone too far, and is willing to use violence to punish those who overstep the bounds of acceptable speech. I wonder whether any of these people, real or theoretical, would describe their motives as a hatred for specific freedoms. It seems to me that someone who truly hated a particular freedom would focus their ire on the parties who ought to be enforcing limits on that freedom. But at this point, if we’re willing to say that “freedom of speech has limits, and I’ll violently punish anyone who oversteps those limits” is somewhere on the spectrum of hating freedom, then I feel okay conceding the point :). ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/98 "2012-08-02T20:34:00Z")
Yes, there’s definitely a continuum, and even the most totalitarian regimes allow speech which is congratulatory of their regime, for example. And some extremists do focus on the people they think should be enforcing limits on freedoms; there are plenty of Jihadists who target Muslim governments because they think that they’re too soft on religious violation. The Talibs spring to mind, for example. And yes, violent actions against people exercising freedom of speech falls somewhere on the spectrum of hating freedom. That’s part of the issue, the situation is nuanced and complex and ill served by soundbytes. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/99 "2012-08-03T15:05:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Interesting. It seems to me that the Phelps-puncher is on the same continuum as the religious killers; do you agree? In both cases, the perp thinks freedom of speech has gone too far, and is willing to use violence to punish those who overstep the bounds of acceptable speech. > > I wonder whether any of these people, real or theoretical, would describe their motives as a hatred for specific freedoms. It seems to me that someone who truly hated a particular freedom would focus their ire on the parties who ought to be enforcing limits on that freedom. > > But at this point, if we’re willing to say that “freedom of speech has limits, and I’ll violently punish anyone who oversteps those limits” is somewhere on the spectrum of hating freedom, then I feel okay conceding the point :). In the interest of bringing thread back from abyss of impertinence (I suppose), now that there’s seems to be an acceptance of “they hate us for our freedom” as a reasonable explanation of “their” motivations, how do you explain an apparent lack of easy and simple to perform “terrorist attacks’ – just like Aurora shooting? I mean, “they hate us for our freedom” is such an omnipresent feature, one would think that even according to the most conservative estimate of 10% of those “afflicted” with it would be sufficient to perform Aurora style terrorist act on a daily basis? The reason I ask is because my understanding of OP is that apparent lack of those easy to do “terrorist acts” brings to question a major assumption about the world you live in; the idea that “they hate us for our freedom”. I actually think that “they hate us for our freedom” is a tin-foil hat with one important distinction – it’s Government made so for many, it fits quite well. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837/100 "2012-08-03T16:28:52Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I mean, “they hate us for our freedom” is such an omnipresent feature, one would think that even according to the most conservative estimate of 10% of those “afflicted” with it would be sufficient to perform Aurora style terrorist act on a daily basis? It’s so very, very obvious that you’re grasping at straws and you’ve been hoisted on your own petard. Not only have you simply made up your 10% figure out of thin air, not only is there no necessary causal connection between hatred and murderous actions… well whatever you claim motivates extremists who hate us? Whatever you might happen to claim that it is, then \*we know that your own claims must be false under your own rationalization, because we don’t see “10%” of people so “afflicted” committing acts of terrorism. \* When you voice an argument that’s so sloppy and ad hoc that it obviously refutes itself, all so you can cast about claims of tinfoil hattery… it may be time to sit down. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-militant-muslims/629837.md?page=6)