# Where are all the old swords? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 14, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476 "2017-04-14T22:50:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/41 "2017-04-17T14:30:30Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Aside from Excalibur, the vast majority of swords were NOT seen as being inherently symbolic. Excalibur goes way back, but it’s rather a one-of. And fictional. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/42 "2017-04-17T14:49:23Z")
Like old soldiers old swords just fade away. A NOVA special on Viking swords showed one that was barely there, probably taken from a grave. Iron and steel don’t last unless cared for. Swords were utilitarian, the decorative type is more likely to persist. A soldier will use the sword not just in combat, which in itself may ruin the weapon, but as a general purpose tool, as a knife, hatchet, pry bar, etc. A sword that gets used eventually gets ruined. For most of history the metals swords were made of, bronze, iron, and steel were very valuable and a broken, bent, cracked, or chipped sword would be made into something else, maybe a shorter sword or knife, or forged into something new. I’m quite surprised at the number of swords that have been found. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/43 "2017-04-17T17:25:16Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > if you think of all the other things people might have preserved, most of them are gone as well. Hand tools were far more plentiful of old, but most of them are gone as well, no matter how useful they were, or how valued for their time. People really don’t bother to save things proudly, nearly as much as you might think they do. Most of this is that we simply don’t understand how _poor_ people were in the past. Manufactured goods are extremely cheap now, but when everything was made by hand, they were _absurdly_ expensive. Only the fabulously wealthy could afford to keep items that weren’t regularly being used. And things regularly being used wear out until they’re sold as rags or ashes or chunks of metal to be reworked into something useful. See [The $3500 shirt](http://www.sleuthsayers.org/2013/06/the-3500-shirt-history-lesson-in.html). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2022, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/44 "2022-02-25T19:30:58Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I’ve mentioned [these](https://thedailybeagle.net/2014/03/23/the-honjo-masamune-a-lost-japanese-treasure/) [swords](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masamune#Honjo_Masamune) before (in the context of I wish that I found them.) One of the most famous swords in Japanese history, taken care of for around 600 years, and lost at the end of WWII (along with a dozen others.) I’d _like_ to think that they are still sitting in someone’s house intact, but they are probably lost forever. Not from this batch of swords (I don’t think) but… > **[Missing 700-year-old national treasure katana found in Australia【Video】](https://soranews24.com/2022/02/26/missing-700-year-old-national-treasure-katana-found-in-australia%e3%80%90video%e3%80%91/)** > > Katana was gifted to shrine by samurai lord two centuries ago, but has been missing for decades. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2022, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/45 "2022-02-25T19:50:26Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > > I’ve mentioned [these](https://thedailybeagle.net/2014/03/23/the-honjo-masamune-a-lost-japanese-treasure/) [swords](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masamune#Honjo_Masamune) before (in the context of I wish that I found them.) One of the most famous swords in Japanese history, taken care of for around 600 years, and lost at the end of WWII (along with a dozen others.) I’d _like_ to think that they are still sitting in someone’s house intact, but they are probably lost forever. > > Not from this batch of swords (I don’t think) but… - > > [Missing 700-year-old national treasure katana found in Australia【Video】 | SoraNews24 -Japan News-](https://soranews24.com/2022/02/26/missing-700-year-old-national-treasure-katana-found-in-australia%e3%80%90video%e3%80%91/) A _true_ samurai sword would never be found. 🤦‍♂️ I was thinking ninja. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2022, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/46 "2022-02-25T22:50:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > > > Aside from Excalibur, the vast majority of swords were NOT seen as being inherently symbolic. Excalibur goes way back, but it’s rather a one-of. > > And fictional. Nimue may beg to differ. ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2022, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/47 "2022-02-25T23:15:24Z")
As mentioned repurposing probably ate up a lot of them. A sword is just a blade, and people use blades in all sorts of applications, especially is ages gone by when most everything was done by hand. Even today people use machetes to clear brush and cut trails; you’d probably get a lot more use out of a big blade by using it for everyday tasks than by saving it to stab an enemy. And with regular use comes wear, re-sharpening, and after a few years it’s too thin/worn out and gets used for something else. A while ago I obtained an old antique-looking wood rasp. I got all excited about the idea of restoring it, making a new wood handle, and using it. Until i looked at the rasps… most of them had been worn down about 1/2 ways from years of use, making the tool pretty much useless (I’m not even sure if you can re-sharpen a rasp in that condition). It’s still sitting on my shelf and will probably end up in the nearest landfill after I die. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2022, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/48 "2022-02-25T23:25:28Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That’s why my major in Anthropology just sits there Yeah, story of my life. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/49 "2022-02-27T08:07:59Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > how many swords did Ogg the Viking go through in his pillaging campaigns _If_ “Ogg” was lucky enough to have a sword (many Vikings just starting out wouldn’t be) it would be a [precious status symbol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_Age_arms_and_armour#Sword) and not something he’d treat lightly. Swords were not “run-of-the-lot common soldier issue” weapons for Vikings at all. They treated them respectfully and passed them down to their heirs, or were buried with them. They cost a _lot_, they would never tolerate ones that “weren’t very well made” . > [@watchwolf49](#): > > get ground down to nothing on the sharpening stone That’s… not how sharpening should work. ETA - just seen this is basically a zombie. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/50 "2022-02-27T09:31:02Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Joyeuse still exists btw, it’s become the French coronation sword (although it’s really a Xth century replica). Here’s Joyeuse; probably only the pommel dates back to the 900’s, but I think that’s good enough (better than Trigger’s Broom, any way). [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/%C3%89p%C3%A9e_de_charlemagne.jpg/247px-%C3%89p%C3%A9e_de_charlemagne.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/%C3%89p%C3%A9e_de_charlemagne.jpg/247px-%C3%89p%C3%A9e_de_charlemagne.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/51 "2022-02-27T09:39:25Z")
> [@Whiskey\_Dickens](#): > > Didn’t the various peoples known as Celts dispose of swords into bogs and marshes? Yes, they did, and many of the Iron Age swords we have today were sacrificed in this manner, then were preserved in low-oxygen bog environments. Note that many of these sacrificed swords were deliberately bent to make them unusable (by humans). [![](https://assets.catawiki.com/image/cw_normal/plain/assets/catawiki/assets/2016/6/16/4/3/4/434a525e-33bf-11e6-83ea-8f94517d3905.jpg) ](https://assets.catawiki.com/image/cw_normal/plain/assets/catawiki/assets/2016/6/16/4/3/4/434a525e-33bf-11e6-83ea-8f94517d3905.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/52 "2022-02-27T10:25:59Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > El Cid’s Tizona… Ah, la Tizona! Such a typical Spanish charade! There are several extant, all but one false, if not all of them false (most probably). But still sold for millions, litigated about, lost in subsequent wars, adorated, loaned to museums to gain credibility, requested back… a real soap opera over centuries and centuries. The English wikipedia is too concise, but here it goes: > **[Tizona](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizona)** > > Tizona (also Tizón) is the name of one of the swords carried by Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar, El Cid, according to the Cantar de Mio Cid. The name of the second sword of El Cid is Colada. > A sword identified as Tizona was given by Ferdinand II of Aragon to Pedro de Peralta, count of Santisteban de Lerín in c. 1470. This sword was long kept in Marcilla Castle, later in the Army Museum in Madrid and since 2007 in the Museo de Burgos. > The name used in the Cantar de Mio Cid is Tizón. > The form Tizona has ... The Spanish version centers more on the controversy surrounding autenticity and litigation: > **[Tizona](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizona)** > > La Tizona o Tizón es una de las espadas (junto a la Colada) que la tradición o la literatura atribuye al Cid Campeador. Según el Cantar de mio Cid (compuesto hacia 1200) la Tizón (su nombre hasta el siglo XIV)​ pertenecía al rey Búcar de Marruecos y el Cid se la ganó en Valencia. > Al igual que sucede con la otra espada que el Cantar de mio Cid y la tradición posterior atribuye, más tarde hubo una común opinión que identificaba la espada de Jaime I de Aragón el Conquistador, llamada Tisó, con la ... ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/53 "2022-02-27T17:52:18Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > Here’s Joyeuse; probably only the pommel dates back to the 900’s, but I think that’s good enough (better than Trigger’s Broom, any way). I’ve read somewhere that the “soul” or “essence” of a sword was regarded as residing in the pommel, and that when a sword’s blade was ruined or destroyed beyond repair, the pommel would sometimes be incorporated into a flail, so that “the weapon” could live on. 'Twas ages ago that I read this, though, and I have no idea how reputable the source was. ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/54 "2022-02-27T17:54:18Z")
Even if swords were cherished heirlooms from the moment they were passed down, they’d need to go through a chain of inheritance where not one single person ever had to choose between keeping said sword and paying off a debt, affording a meal, or using it to make a desperately needed tool. That’s a very privileged situation, with a high likelihood of that chain of inheritance breaking the longer time goes on. Then there’s all the people who had to flee invasion, ethnic purging, natural disasters, fires, and any number of circumstances that would result in leaving those items behind to someone who may not recognize their value, or which ends up in them being destroyed altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/55 "2022-02-27T18:02:34Z")
Well, there’s one hanging above our mantelpiece. It’s a Civil War cavalry sword worn by someone in my husband’s family; no one now knows who, nor which side he fought on. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/56 "2022-02-28T14:44:49Z")
If you post pictures of it here, it shouldn’t be too difficult to figure out. Some officers had privately made swords (and many surviving “Civil War swords” are ceremonial ones made after the war), but most were essentially mass-produced and issued by the Union or Confederate governments, like [this one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1860_Light_Cavalry_Saber). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/57 "2022-02-28T14:56:46Z")
I recall seeing a lot of old swords in homes in Scotland when we spent our Honeymoon doing a B&B self-tour for 17 days. Obviously a lot more in the Castles and Forts we visited. ---
**Author:** ![ThisOneGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@ThisOneGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisOneGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/58 "2022-02-28T20:00:10Z")
Regarding there being more Japanese swords still around, this is due to them being required to be worn as a sign of social status for the samurai until 1870. So there was less reason to beat them into plowshares in the period between them being not very useful for war and steel becoming cheap. Then post WWII many got brought back as souvenirs so there are lots in the US. Even then most were made post 1600 when they stopped being used for war. Really old (over 700 years or so) are very rare and pretty much are only around if they were a shrine offering or similar. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/59 "2022-02-28T21:00:32Z")
A while back a ‘sword’ (Brass handle and bayonet size blade) was found by the county while trenching to lay a pipe or something up around Alamillo. I took the artifact to a museum in Albuquerque for identification. After a while I got a response that it is a Roman Gladius. C’mon man! In central New Mexico? Turns out the Gladius design was perpetuated for centuries and sword like weapons did not change much. They were manufactured in mass and stored in government armories for centuries. During the American Civil War, Artillery Officers were issued an Artillery Officers Sword/Dagger. Most of those used by the Confederacy came from France, where there were a lot of them lying around in old armories. This one was probably issued to an Artillery Officer under Sibley’s command. He must have lost it at a camp site near Alamillo NM while moving north after the battle of Valverde. The Archaeologists thought it was not of recent (1850s) manufacture, but it was impossible to date further. I gave it to a friend who appreciates the significance of the artifact because he really believes he is the reincarnation of a Confederate Artillery Officer. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476/60 "2022-03-02T16:09:26Z")
I came across this photo of iron weapons, dated to 3000 years ago. As you can see, they’re barely holding together and were probably useless for any purpose at all a few hundred years after manufacture. Iron and steel got better over time but still rust away to nothing in a relatively short time. [https://old.reddit.com/r/ArtefactPorn/comments/t50brc/](https://old.reddit.com/r/ArtefactPorn/comments/t50brc/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-old-swords/784476.md?page=4)