# Where are all the young Turk Republicans with new ideas, why is no one stepping up? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696 "2009-05-17T01:20:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/41 "2009-05-18T03:33:11Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Anyone looking for the formation of a third party is fooling themselves. The dessicated corpse of the Republican Party is still an incredibly valuable property. Anyone who leaves to form a third party is essentially commiting electoral suicide. Shhh! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/42 "2009-05-18T04:09:39Z")
The Republicans only suffer for a few months every thirty years. I’ll enjoy it while it lasts. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/43 "2009-05-18T04:27:19Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Instead of an ellipsis, why don’t you put in some thoughts to support your assertion, let alone complete your assertion, if you are able. In GD you shouldn’t elide the most important part. [/QUOTE] It was just an observation old boy. As for support of my observation (not assertion) I’ll just point out that it wasn’t that long ago that the term ‘liberal’ was practically a dirty word, to such an extent that liberals became ‘progressives’. As for the OP…I don’t think that ‘young Turk Republicans’ are stepping up with new ideas on how to reshape the party because I don’t think the old guard conservatives are convinced that their political stances have been discredited to the extent that many here seem to be assuming. And until the real powers behind the Republican party are convinced that they are truly out of step with the majority of American’s I don’t think that THEY are going to be looking for fundamental change. Myself, I think that many Republican conservatives are convinced that their current unpopularity is due to factors that aren’t part of their core principals. In addition I think that many of them feel that Obama and the Dems are leading the country over the cliff, and that it’s only a matter of time before this sinks in to the collective consciousness of the people…who will then flock back to the Republican party. If this doesn’t happen and if the country continues to move in a more liberal direction and the attitudes of the people continue to change (especially on the social side)…well THEN you might see a new breed of Republican attempt to re-define the party and re-define what ‘conservative’ means. Maybe, like the word ‘liberal’, conservative Republicans will attempt a name change and a re-packaging of the ideals and concepts into a shinny new product. A catchy name change, a quick re-wording of the core concepts and bob’s your uncle…a whole new ball game and another of those periodic pendulum changes, this time to the right. To me it’s still early days…WAY to early to seriously expect a real sea change in the Republican party. Much as I’d love to see one I think the Republicans would need to get beat up for a couple more election cycles before the more progressive, centrist or fringe elements of the party could even reasonably contemplate a shift to dislodge, modify or change the hard core ‘conservative’ elements (social OR economic). Just my own two cents…YMMV of course. -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/44 "2009-05-18T04:30:48Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It was just an observation old boy. As for support of my observation (not assertion) I’ll just point out that it wasn’t that long ago that the term ‘liberal’ was practically a dirty word, to such an extent that liberals became ‘progressives’… I, personally, have been using the word “progressive” to describe my politics for about forty years now. As have any number of my like-minded friends. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/45 "2009-05-18T04:59:56Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > To me it’s still early days…WAY to early to seriously expect a real sea change in the Republican party. Heh. About a month ago Jindal (I think) declared that the GOP’s “time in the woods” was over. > [@xtisme](#): > > Much as I’d love to see one I think the Republicans would need to get beat up for a couple more election cycles before the more progressive, centrist or fringe elements of the party could even reasonably contemplate a shift to dislodge, modify or change the hard core ‘conservative’ elements (social OR economic). Unfortunately, losing 4 elections in a row is pretty damning for their long-term chances as a viable party. Voting for one party 3 times in a row tends to solidify that partisan tendency, so 4 times in a row would really diminish the amount of the electorate that the GOP could reach. ---
**Author:** ![NoJustice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecb155/32.png) [@NoJustice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoJustice)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/46 "2009-05-18T06:27:48Z")
Am I the only one who thinks that the situation with American politics today is exactly the same as it was eight years ago only with the roles reversed? The tastycrats think they’ve completely defeated the fingerlickins forever, and cheer at the chaos as the fingerlickins attack each other. Meanwhile the fingerlickins are convinced the tastycrats are leading the country over a cliff and will do whatever it takes to stop them. I predict the actions of the Obama administration will be directly opposed to their supposed liberal ideology, and the tastycrats will continue to worship him regardless and re-elect him even as he spits in their faces, setting the stage for the fingerlickins to return triumphantly and spank the tastycrats once again and continue the cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/47 "2009-05-18T07:39:04Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > Am I the only one who thinks that the situation with American politics today is exactly the same as it was eight years ago only with the roles reversed? No. First because the Democrats didn’t have the demographic problems that the Republicans do. Second, because they simply aren’t as crazy. And third, because the Democrats aren’t composed of groups with the same kind of mutually exclusive and intolerant goals as the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/48 "2009-05-18T07:52:38Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > Am I the only one who thinks that the situation with American politics today is exactly the same as it was eight years ago only with the roles reversed? I generally agree with your sentiment - that both parties tend to fuck us and are just different sides of the same coin, that insane deeply ingrained partisanship gives people a false perspective about the Unwavering Good of Their Guys and the Unwavering Evil of The Other Party, but I think the Republican party is coming apart at the seams in a way that the Democratic party probably wouldn’t. The loose coalition of religious assholes, libertarians, big-business lapdogs, the rich, big defense/pro intervention (not necesarily the same group), etc. is much more hard to hold together than democrats who generally are less different in their ideologies. In the past, the libertarian (for example) vote went to Republcians by default because there was at least the perception that Republicans, even though far from the libertarian ideal, were at least more fiscally responsible than the democrats. But it’s clear now that that isn’t the case. So why should the libertarians have any allegiance to the Republican party at this point? The party could previously keep the religious assholes satisfied with some half ass token support, but that faction has become more vocal and militant lately. We have to deal with stupid bullshit like creationism being put into the curriculum in some states, the backlash against gay marriage, etc. The religious right is demanding more now than token action - they are becoming aggressive about their agenda. That alienates other groups who don’t care about that or even active oppose this stuff who previously tolerated the religious right as part of their coalition, but no longer will. Take me for example - my number one issue is still the reduction in size and power of the government. When I first started voting about a decade ago, I tended to lean more republican (but not blindly) because they were at least giving lip service to that idea - but now? Neither party represents me remotely. And I’m not a partisan retard who bought into this “it’s us vs them, and I have to support my guys even if they don’t actually represent my views because THEM is EVIL” mentality. The Republicans are losing the small government/fiscal conservative/libertarian vote because of their human rights violations, retarded deficit spending, bowing before religious assholes, and propping up big business at the expense of smaller businesses and a free market. They’re losing some of the religious assholes who don’t believe they’re extreme enough in making us a Christian nation or shooting gays into space. And so on. It’s pretty amazing that they’ve held such a loose group of mutually-contradictory factions into a coalition for as long as they have - mostly through the partisan mentality earlier I mentioned where it’s okay if your own party screws you because the other party is The Enemy. But given the complete failure of neocon policies and the backlash of the religious right, a lot of people can no longer tolerate being in a coalition of people who oppose their views. It’s coming apart at the seams. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/49 "2009-05-18T13:41:22Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It was just an observation old boy. As for support of my observation (not assertion) I’ll just point out that it wasn’t that long ago that the term ‘liberal’ was practically a dirty word, to such an extent that liberals became ‘progressives’. [It’s a bit more complicated than that.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=496350) ---
**Author:** ![NoJustice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecb155/32.png) [@NoJustice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoJustice)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/50 "2009-05-19T04:01:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No. First because the Democrats didn’t have the demographic problems that the Republicans do. Second, because they simply aren’t as crazy. And third, because the Democrats aren’t composed of groups with the same kind of mutually exclusive and intolerant goals as the Republicans. I won’t argue whether the democrats had demographic problems, are or were crazy, or have mutually exclusive and intolerant goals… but if you had asked a republican during the height of bush’s popularity, are you sure they wouldn’t have _thought_ democrats had demographic problems, were crazy, and had mutually exclusive and intolerant goals? (I dunno about intolerant, but the state of the party at the time certainly supported the idea they had mutually exclusive goals) Yeah yeah, I can already hear the answer… They were wrong then, but right now, you are right. Sorry I just don’t think that applies here. This is politics where the perception of the day is the only reality. **SenorBeef** I have no doubt that the republican party is coming apart at the seams as you describe… but I see no reason to think it will result in anything different than a state very much like the one the democratic party had been in for some time where political infighting leads them to snatch defeat from the jaws of every victory as the democratic party became well known for. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/51 "2009-05-19T05:08:26Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > I won’t argue whether the democrats had demographic problems, are or were crazy, or have mutually exclusive and intolerant goals… but if you had asked a republican during the height of bush’s popularity, are you sure they wouldn’t have _thought_ democrats had demographic problems, were crazy, and had mutually exclusive and intolerant goals? (I dunno about intolerant, but the state of the party at the time certainly supported the idea they had mutually exclusive goals) There’s a difference between people who aren’t getting along, and people whose goals are fundamentally at odds, or fundamentally incoherent. As for asking a Republican, now or then; Republicans are big on denial of reality. Whatever they said, by nature would only be related to the truth by accident. > [@NoJustice](#): > > Yeah yeah, I can already hear the answer… They were wrong then, but right now, you are right. Sorry I just don’t think that applies here. This is politics where the perception of the day is the only reality. Wrong; there IS an objective reality, which can and will override politics, no matter how fervently they are held. ---
**Author:** ![NoJustice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecb155/32.png) [@NoJustice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoJustice)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/52 "2009-05-19T05:34:27Z")
As a bit of an aside… just what is ‘_objective reality_’ anyway? objectivity is a philosophical concept, not a property of reality itself. Reality is reality. Objectivity has nothing to do with that. I’m not trying to say that there is no reality, or that reality is subjective. But I’m not sure reality can ‘_override_’ politics. Politics is fairly unique in that it is able to insulate itself from most of reality. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/53 "2009-05-19T05:47:21Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > As a bit of an aside… just what is ‘_objective reality_’ anyway? > objectivity is a philosophical concept, not a property of reality itself. Reality is reality. Objectivity has nothing to do with that. People do use terms like “subjectively real”; referring to “objective reality” makes it clear that you are talking about what is truly real. > [@NoJustice](#): > > I’m not trying to say that there is no reality, or that reality is subjective. But I’m not sure reality can ‘_override_’ politics. Politics is fairly unique in that it is able to insulate itself from most of reality. That was the attitude of the Bush Administration; “we make our own reality”. It failed miserably. Reality overrides politics all the time; no amount of ideology will make the impossible possible or the stupid smart. ---
**Author:** ![NoJustice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecb155/32.png) [@NoJustice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoJustice)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/54 "2009-05-19T06:30:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Reality overrides politics all the time; no amount of ideology will make the impossible possible or the stupid smart. That only means that politics can’t override reality. It doesn’t change the fact that people can continue to believe in their failed policies regardless of how stupid they may be or how impossible the results they expect. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/55 "2009-05-19T06:51:19Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > That only means that politics can’t override reality. It doesn’t change the fact that people can continue to believe in their failed policies regardless of how stupid they may be or how impossible the results they expect. They can, and they’ll fail at whatever they are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/56 "2009-05-19T06:52:39Z")
Why should ANY Republican care right now? There is no election, so there’s no need to speak out. The only thing being in the limelight right now is going to do is give your opponents more opportunity to dig stuff up about you. ---
**Author:** ![NoJustice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecb155/32.png) [@NoJustice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoJustice)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/57 "2009-05-19T07:05:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They can, and they’ll fail at whatever they are doing. They’ll fail at everything _except politics_. edit: well, that’s not quite right… they can fail at politics as a result of failing at reality. But it isn’t guaranteed, and even if they do fail, that failure can be blamed on anything that people will believe. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/58 "2009-05-19T13:49:39Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > I won’t argue whether the democrats had demographic problems, are or were crazy, or have mutually exclusive and intolerant goals… but if you had asked a republican during the height of bush’s popularity, are you sure they wouldn’t have _thought_ democrats had demographic problems, were crazy, and had mutually exclusive and intolerant goals? (I dunno about intolerant, but the state of the party at the time certainly supported the idea they had mutually exclusive goals). I don’t remember (I could be wrong) demographics really being blamed for the Democratic losses from 2000-2006. The usual culprit was poor messaging and a lack of leadership where all the Democrats had was “We hate Bush” as a common thread. There’s an obvious comparison between that and the poor messaging and lack of leadership in the GOP but I think it’s compounded by real shifts in demographics. It’s not enough to attract swing type voters, the GOP also needs to sell itself to Hispanic and young voter populations which are self-identifying as Democratic. Not impossible but a definite uphill battle. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/59 "2009-05-19T14:24:28Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > As a bit of an aside… just what is ‘_objective reality_’ anyway? If you ram the end of a paperclip under one of your fingernails, you will comprehend the concept of objective reality on a level deeper and more compelling than rational discourse. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696/60 "2009-05-19T14:25:42Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Why should ANY Republican care right now? There is no election, so there’s no need to speak out. The only thing being in the limelight right now is going to do is give your opponents more opportunity to dig stuff up about you. What the Pubs probably fear is that if they are out of power and out of the limelight too, the people will begin to forget they exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-all-the-young-turk-republicans-with-new-ideas-why-is-no-one-stepping-up/496696.md?page=4)