# Where are Muslims getting the notion that the Earth is ~6,000 years old? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 9, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100 "2011-10-09T19:50:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/21 "2011-10-11T00:51:11Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I agree with all that AK84 says > > When I saw this i was sure it must be some odd case of British muslims adopting Christian beliefs. I assume you are also a Muslim. But with all due respect, I doubt that you are typical. I would guess that you and AK are much better educated than the typical Muslim, even in the US, just as most Dopers overall are much better educated than the average American. If the survey posted is valid, and it seems to be, then scientific illiteracy is a real problem in Turkey and the US, and presumably all other countries where religion (of any denomination) has great influence on government. Whether or not people are fervently anti-science is beside the point. All it takes is scientific illiteracy to allow the people who ARE fervently anti-science to run the country, and the world, into the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/22 "2011-10-11T01:01:18Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > šŸ˜• Hostility to evolution is [more prevalent](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/bigphotos/21329204.html) in the ā€œactual Muslim countryā€ of Turkey than in the United States. The q was: > [@](#): > > ā€œHuman beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals.ā€ The question was not, ā€œDo you believe in any form of evolution?ā€ or whatever. Or even how long the Earth had been around. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/23 "2011-10-11T01:03:21Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Interesting study, thanks. You misunderstood. In a country like the United States, evolution is challenged because it is percieved to violate Christian beliefs. Evolution on the other hand is _generally_ not considered incompatible with muslim beliefs. Acceptance or rejection of evolution is a non-issue, at least on this score. This. This is what I hear from (and about) Muslims in nearly every corner of the world. And the question asked if you thought people descended from earlier animals. If you believe that a deity created man, well, youā€™re going to answer ā€˜noā€™. Of course Turkey was ā€˜in redā€™. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/24 "2011-10-11T04:59:04Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > I assume you are also a Muslim. But with all due respect, I doubt that you are typical. I would guess that you and AK are much better educated than the typical Muslim, even in the US, just as most Dopers overall are much better educated than the average American. > > If the survey posted is valid, and it seems to be, then scientific illiteracy is a real problem in Turkey and the US, and presumably all other countries where religion (of any denomination) has great influence on government. Whether or not people are fervently anti-science is beside the point. All it takes is scientific illiteracy to allow the people who ARE fervently anti-science to run the country, and the world, into the ground. Again, I cannot speak for Turkey. But I was born and raised in Pakistan and due to my fathers career (army officer) I lived all over, from the cities, to the poorest most backwards areas, and as a lawyer have managed to interact with persons of all stripes. What you seem to be misunderstanding is that this is a different culture, with different prejudices. People are much more likely to argue that science confirms Islam, then say that Islam is incompatible with science. This is NOT due to any love or knowledge of science, rather it is a cultural position. [QUOTE=fiddlesticks] I remember hearing a BBC World Service report interview a while back with a college professor in Pakistan who talked about his students rejecting science over religion. I believe it was after an earthquake in Pakistan, and the professor was explaining about how plate tectonics cause earthquakes to his students, but his students argued that saying anything more than ā€œGod causes earthquakesā€ was potentially blasphemous. And these students werenā€™t children whose only education was memorizing the Koran, they were generally from an middle to upper class background. (Fundamentalism is scary in any religious guise.) [/QUOTE] I agree with your last. And IIRC that was Professor [Pervez Hooudboy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pervez_Hoodbhoy), Professor of Physics at the University of Islamabad (also known as Quiad-e-Azam University) and all round motor mouth. And for the 2005 Earthquake, I was in the country during that time, and I do remember that there were hundereds of articles, newspaper reports, TV documentaries, about the causes of earthquakes, and not one of them said anything about Plate Tectonics being balsphemous. On the contarary, as there were several thousand aftershocks, for weeks, there many rumours that there was to be another earthquake on this day at this time, which were of course bunk. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/25 "2011-10-11T12:33:46Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > I assume you are also a Muslim. But with all due respect, I doubt that you are typical. I would guess that you and AK are much better educated than the typical Muslim, even in the US, just as most Dopers overall are much better educated than the average American. > > If the survey posted is valid, and it seems to be, then scientific illiteracy is a real problem in Turkey and the US, and presumably all other countries where religion (of any denomination) has great influence on government. Whether or not people are fervently anti-science is beside the point. All it takes is scientific illiteracy to allow the people who ARE fervently anti-science to run the country, and the world, into the ground. Then you are are in your belief, as it is not typical to be hostile to evolution. It is not even much an issue in Islamic belief. This is something American in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/26 "2011-10-11T12:37:58Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > ā€¦ > What you seem to be misunderstanding is that this is a different culture, with different prejudices. People are much more likely to argue that science confirms Islam, then say that Islam is incompatible with science. This is NOT due to any love or knowledge of science, rather it is a cultural position. I agree. It is more common to hear odd statements that some science theory has always been confirmed in the Quran or in some Hadith. Sometimes it is very strangely argued, but this is so much more common. > [@](#): > > I do remember that there were hundereds of articles, newspaper reports, TV documentaries, about the causes of earthquakes, and not one of them said anything about Plate Tectonics being balsphemous. On the contarary, as there were several thousand aftershocks, ā€¦ It is most common I think to hear a Muslim say that God works through the plate tectonics. It is very alien to deny science directly as there is too many Hadiths that make that an uncomfortable position. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/27 "2011-10-11T18:33:55Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > This. This is what I hear from (and about) Muslims in nearly every corner of the world. And the question asked if you thought people descended from earlier animals. If you believe that a deity created man, well, youā€™re going to answer ā€˜noā€™. Of course Turkey was ā€˜in redā€™. Ah, I see. Given the way the question was phrased, then, it looks as though the Turkey results merely reflect ignorance of evolutionary theory rather than outright hostility. That is something very different (and far less disturbing) from what Dawkins reports as going on in this UK school. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/28 "2011-11-28T18:04:39Z")
Muslim students in England are refusing to take courses that teach evolution: > **[CollegeMisery.com is for sale | HugeDomains](https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=collegemisery.com)** > > Own this domain today. We make your shopping experience easy. Friendly and quick customer service. That could be a real impediment to graduation or to employability in some professions, no? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/29 "2011-11-28T18:06:53Z")
A more permanent link: [http://digitaljournal.com/article/315156](http://digitaljournal.com/article/315156) Iā€™m reminded of a flap I mentioned some months ago regarding students who did not want to watch R-rated films in class for religious reason. It was only a couple of students, though; the rest just sucked it up or were used to it already. ---
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/30 "2011-11-28T18:48:17Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > But whether or not it was ever part of doctrine, there is definitely direct Biblical authority for it. As you said, there are genealogies in the Bible that go back to Adam, and that give the ages of the parent when the son was born, from Adam down to Jacob at least. Other verses give the years in Egypt, and from the Exodus to the monarchy, and the reigns of some Israelite kings can be coordinated with external sources. I was raised Christian in a relatively fundamental church (the story of Jonah is literally true in their minds). Iā€™m having trouble finding a cite for it now, but I was told that the genealogies skip generations. My pastors taught that itā€™s typical in old Hebrew records to only list the most important decedents rather than listing every father and every son, so thereā€™s no way of accurately calculating time from them. I never attended a church that claimed the Bible said the Earth was {insert four digit number here} years old, though I knew of a few that I suspect taught that. (They were rather too fundie for my familyā€™s tastes. Plus the really fundie pastors tend to be egocentric jerks who are always right, which did not make for a church community we wanted to be part of.) ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/31 "2011-11-28T23:12:56Z")
> [@FlyByNight512](#): > > My pastors taught that itā€™s typical in old Hebrew records to only list the most important decedents rather than listing every father and every son, so thereā€™s no way of accurately calculating time from them. Iā€™m wondering what kind of credentials your pastors had in ancient Hebrew studies. I always get a kick out of people who have taken at most a year of Greek or Hebrew, and more likely just have thumbed through Strongā€™s, and are happy to explain why the scholars who have translated major Bible versions, most of whom have devoted their lives to the study of the manuscripts in the original languages, have gotten it so wrong. At any rate, Iā€™m willing to bet that ancient Jewish scholars knew more about it than your pastors, and they have evidently considered the genealogies continuous for at least the thousands of years they have based their calendar on the Anno Mundi chronology. There is some variation based on different texts, but it only amounts to a few hundred years, i.e. not anywhere near enough to reconcile the Bible with science. Just in case you arenā€™t aware of it, the genealogies do not say, ā€œDavidā€™s ancestors included Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.ā€ They say, for example > [@](#): > > (Genesis, KJV): > **11:10** These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood: **11:11** And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters. **11:12** And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah: **11:13** And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters. **11:14** And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber: **11:15** And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters. **11:16** And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg: So I donā€™t see any way to make the case that they skipped generations. The years are explicitly laid out from Adam down to Jacob at least, and there are verses saying how long the Israelites were in Egypt, and how long after the Exodus the Temple was built, so all you have to do is add up the numbers and then assign a date to Solomonā€™s reign. That has recently become controversial, but not as controversial as the existence of Adam and Eve. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/32 "2011-11-29T00:04:06Z")
The only time Iā€™ve heard the skipping thing was as an explanation for why the earlier geologies had people who were so long lived. And, no, I wouldnā€™t trust ancient Jewish scholars for anything for the very reason that they are ancient, and the obvious practice you see of forcing the narrative to fit multiple variations of stories. I would trust modern Jewish scholars much more. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/33 "2011-11-29T00:11:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, no, I wouldnā€™t trust ancient Jewish scholars for anything I wouldnā€™t rely on them for much, but I think they have the inside track on how ancient Jews thought. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/34 "2011-11-29T00:32:35Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > At any rate, Iā€™m willing to bet that ancient Jewish scholars knew more about it than your pastors, and they have evidently considered the genealogies continuous for at least the thousands of years they have based their calendar on the Anno Mundi chronology. There is some variation based on different texts, but it only amounts to a few hundred years, i.e. not anywhere near enough to reconcile the Bible with science. My Reform Rabbi says this is the year 5772, ā€œ5772 years since we began recorded history.ā€ šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/35 "2011-11-29T01:47:10Z")
Just to add what little I know: [Adnan Oktar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan_Oktar) (Harun Yahya) seems to be one of the main players in the creationist movement in Turkey. Heā€™s filed a bunch of lawsuits that, amongst other things, led to large chunks of the web being blocked within Turkey. ---
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/36 "2011-11-29T02:19:33Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > Iā€™m wondering what kind of credentials your pastors had in ancient Hebrew studies. I always get a kick out of people who have taken at most a year of Greek or Hebrew, and more likely just have thumbed through Strongā€™s, and are happy to explain why the scholars who have translated major Bible versions, most of whom have devoted their lives to the study of the manuscripts in the original languages, have gotten it so wrong. Nice ad hominem attack. :rolleyes: My point was (and is) that a significant number of US Christians donā€™t agree with the idea that you can calculate the Earthā€™s age from the Old Testament genealogical records. I pointed that out because it seemed relevant to this thread, but I may have been mistaken in that regard, so Iā€™ll leave it there. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/37 "2011-11-29T14:30:51Z")
> [@FlyByNight512](#): > > Nice ad hominem attack. :rolleyes: > > My point was (and is) that a significant number of US Christians donā€™t agree with the idea that you can calculate the Earthā€™s age from the Old Testament genealogical records. I pointed that out because it seemed relevant to this thread, but I may have been mistaken in that regard, so Iā€™ll leave it there. Jesus, maybe youā€™re too sensitive for this board. I did not attack you; I didnā€™t even attack your pastors, although I made it very clear that it was them I was dubious about, and not you. As for making your point, thatā€™s great, and it was indeed relevant. And I made a counterpoint, which IMO was also relevant. What exactly did you expect in response ā€” applause? ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/38 "2011-11-29T14:48:16Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > My Reform Rabbi says this is the year 5772, ā€œ5772 years since we began recorded history.ā€ šŸ™‚ I have no idea what he means by that. The oldest writing, as far as we know, is not that old, and even if you believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, the oldest books of the Bible are less than 3500 years old. If heā€™s referring to the age of the events that people have written about, then obviously they go back far beyond 5772 years ago. So what does he mean? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/39 "2011-11-29T14:56:39Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > So what does he mean? That the earth isnā€™t 5772 years old, we just know about 5772 years (more or less) of religious stuff from writings, oral tradition and stories told around the camp fire while we we sitting on our knuckles admiring each otherā€™s stone hammers. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100/40 "2011-11-29T15:35:51Z")
Oddly I was about to start a thread along these lines. In our reading book, we had a discussion of how the earth was formed. Billions of years ago this, then that, asteroids delivered water, the continents arose, the atmosphere was built from volcanic fumes and so on. Then the earliest single-cell organisms began. A nice application of the passive voice. In any case, this somehow lead us to talk about the Lord creating the world in six days. I had to put a kabash on that, but after class I asked a few students if they had any religious issues with the description of the creation of the earth. They said ā€˜nopeā€™ and went happily on to their math class. So, the OP seems to be quite wrong. Modern Saudis accept the standard scientific explanation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-muslims-getting-the-notion-that-the-earth-is-6-000-years-old/599100.md?page=3)