# Where are the good guys in the Middle East? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513 "2015-11-14T01:11:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/21 "2015-11-14T11:15:18Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > As much as it might sound insightful, what happened last night wasn’t because the wrong team occupies Jerusalem. > > By far the biggest factor in the cause of last night was the unilateral war the USA waged on Iraq. So the answer will obviously be to blow more shit up. Ah yes, the we are the center of the universe complex. All positive outcomes are because of what others do, all negative outcomes are sources from our actions in a historical frame. The locals? Puppets on a string, mindless automata that have no actual agency of their own, they are merely playing out the deterministic happenstance we set in motion… We mucked up Iraq, but let's not pretend that was a country with eternal stability, the butchering and blood debts were kept in check by Sadaam ramming a steel cleated boot onto the necks of the Shia. But correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe that man was an immortal, something would eventually give, and we could easily have seen another terrible outcome. We invaded Japan and that did not turn into a shit hole. We fought the Korean war, again, south korea is the opposite of a shit hole while the North is the land if literal darkness, where American influence FAILED to penetrate. Why? Populations matter, it’s NOT all about what we do, a lot of it, most of it is about what THEY are, their culture, their beliefs, their attitudes, and yes, SOME of our influence, but not all and certainly not most. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/22 "2015-11-14T11:55:16Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > that is ridiculous. there is no war 1500 years old. Islamic dominated culture and Christian dominated culture have had conflict on and off for 1400 years. The Ottoman wars in Europe lasted from 1299-1908 depending on how you count it. Then there was the crusades plus the muslim conquests of the levant and northern Africa from 600AD to the founding of the Ottoman empire. Calling it one war or a series of independent conflicts is a matter of semantics. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/23 "2015-11-14T12:06:04Z")
It is not semantics, it is not being ridiculous, else we should say that the christian world has been at war for 2000 years with the non christians, all of them… it is a stupid idea. In the case of the ottoman, for example, sometimes they allied with other christian powers and even against other muslim local powers. Only by actively being ignorant and distorting history can one pretend to the idea of a 1500 years war. that is stupid, it is also exactly how the takfiri like the DAESH think. They are wrong as well. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/24 "2015-11-14T13:42:14Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > We mucked up Iraq, but let’s not pretend …o Right “mucked up”. That was some muck for $2 trillion, half a million dead civilians, a totally destabilised region and the creation if ISIS. I’d hate to see what a proper fuck up would look like. Through longstanding sanctions, Iraq was contained and controlled in 2003, lets not pretend otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/25 "2015-11-14T13:54:33Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > that is ridiculous. there is no war 1500 years old. I’m rounding. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/26 "2015-11-14T15:27:15Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > In Egypt: 29 percent of people say suicide bombing in defense of islam is sometimes justified. In Palestine it’s 40 percent. Cherry picking, super majorities in all the other countries and regions polled there oppose that. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Our Presidents and other leaders will always tell us that the great majority of Muslims are innocent of any support for extremism, are moderate, are non-violent, and so forth. As President Obama put it after the Charlie Hebdo murders, “No religion condones the killing of innocent people.” This is what’s called political correctness. It’s something that’s said for political reasons, not because the speaker really believes it. So the imams and other leaders that do condemn this action are not risking anything? And all of them are not sincere? > **[Muslims around the world condemn terrorism after the Paris attacks](https://qz.com/550104/muslims-around-the-world-condemn-terrorism-after-the-paris-attacks)** > > "These so-called jihadists and fundamentalists only represent themselves." > [@](#): > > Muslims around the world condemn terrorism after the Paris attacks > > Muslims around the world, from religious leaders and politicians to ordinary people, meanwhile, are condemning the attacks. > > In an official statement, Iranian president Hassan Rouhani called the attacks a “crime against humanity.” > > > [@](#): > > > > ``` > > In the name of the Iranian people, who have themselves been victims of terrorism, I strongly condemn these crimes against humanity and offer my condolences to the grieving French people and government. > > > > ``` > > Indonesian president Joko Widodo condemned the “violence that took place in Paris,” and called for more international cooperation to fight terrorism. > > Leaders of Arab states called the attacks immoral and inhumane. Qatar’s foreign minister Khaled al-Attiyah denounced the “heinous attacks,” adding, “these acts, which target stability and security in France are against all human and moral values.” Kuwaiti Emir Sheikh Sabah al-Sabah called the attacks “criminal acts of terrorism which run counter to all teachings of holy faith and humanitarian values.” The Saudi foreign ministry called for global cooperation to “root out this dangerous and destructive plague.” > > Many took to social media, including this British imam: > > ``` > @CP24 I am a British Imam and I condemn these barbaric attacks. I pray to God for all the victims and their families. #Paris > > — Mansoor Ahmad Clarke, November 14, 2015 > > ``` > > and British author: > > ``` > Gunmen were heard shouting 'Allahu Akbar' but I did the same tonight, in my room, praying for those killed & their families #Paris > > — Ayisha Malik, November 14, 2015 > > ``` It is not political correctness to point at what is going on, it is just to set the record straight. True, there is a lot of bad guys, but if we do not look to support the good guys we end up driving them also to the dark side. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > But if folks listen to politically correct speech too much, they can gradually lose sight of what’s true and what’s false. In truth, it’s not the case that all but a tiny fraction of Muslims support peace and democracy. If that were true, more of the Middle East would be peaceful and democratic. Even in the cherry picked poll cited early by the other poster the truth is that the vast majority does condemn terrorism, for all other items other solutions will have to be applied, as I can see a lot of those Muslim nations that are undemocratic and finance terror got to be as powerful as they are because the west intervened. I remember, for example, that part of the deal of allowing the west to develop the oil industry was to allow Wahabism (that is more radical version of their religion and has many members supporting insurgent movements elsewhere) in Saudi Arabia to not be disturbed. Well, I do think we should ween off our fossil fuel addiction and to tell them that indeed we will disturb their ideology more if they do not deal with their irrational members. It does not need to be a military intervention as many on the right would like to do, but it can be an economical and more sophisticated propaganda intervention. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/27 "2015-11-14T15:41:22Z")
It depends how you define ‘good guys’, even Al-Qaeda hates ISIS. To stand up and protest local terrorism you have to be pretty fucking scary or powerful yourself, otherwise you end up dead. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/28 "2015-11-14T17:17:33Z")
LOL. You have to laugh really; you couldn’t even dream up an organisation that is hated equally by Europe, the USA, Putin and Al-Qaeda. It’s some kind of fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/29 "2015-11-14T18:13:42Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Islamic dominated culture and Christian dominated culture have had conflict on and off for 1400 years. The Ottoman wars in Europe lasted from 1299-1908 depending on how you count it. Then there was the crusades plus the muslim conquests of the levant and northern Africa from 600AD to the founding of the Ottoman empire. > > Calling it one war or a series of independent conflicts is a matter of semantics. This is, not to put too fine a point on it, bullshit. During the initial invasions of Syria and Egypt in the Seventh Century, many local.Christians welcomed and even assisted the Muslim invaders because they were a different sect of Christianity than the Byzantines, who persecuted and oppressed them. During the First Crusade, the Fatimid Caliphate supported the European invasion of their Turkish enemy, and many Turkish Muslim mercenaries fought for the Crusader armies. And from 1500 or so until Napoleon’s time, France was actually allied to the Ottoman Caliphate, including during the famous “siege of Vienna” in 1683 (so beloved of Islamophobes as the time when Christian Europe stopped the ravaging Muslim hordes) was not just supported by the King of France, but encouraged by him as a blow against his Christian Habsburg enemy. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/30 "2015-11-14T18:37:56Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Where were all the good, tolerant, peace-loving Germans in WWII? > > Answer that, and you’ll have a good idea why tolerant, peace-loving folks in the Middle East tend to be invisible. When you’re living next door to people who think tolerance is an evil thing you get cautious about saying anything. Also, when you can’t be sure that you DON’T live next door to such people. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/31 "2015-11-14T18:45:26Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > This is, not to put too fine a point on it, bullshit. During the initial invasions of Syria and Egypt in the Seventh Century, many local.Christians welcomed and even assisted the Muslim invaders because they were a different sect of Christianity than the Byzantines, who persecuted and oppressed them. During the First Crusade, the Fatimid Caliphate supported the European invasion of their Turkish enemy, and many Turkish Muslim mercenaries fought for the Crusader armies. And from 1500 or so until Napoleon’s time, France was actually allied to the Ottoman Caliphate, including during the famous “siege of Vienna” in 1683 (so beloved of Islamophobes as the time when Christian Europe stopped the ravaging Muslim hordes) was not just supported by the King of France, but encouraged by him as a blow against his Christian Habsburg enemy. Hence my long-held stance that there’s really no such thing as a “religious” war. The aim of every war there has ever been has been to get one’s mitts on the other guy’s stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/32 "2015-11-14T18:56:32Z")
Combine \*\*Martin’s \*\*very thoughtful post #2 with **coremelt’s** very informative post #5 and I think you have a pretty good answer to the OP’s question. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/33 "2015-11-14T19:04:54Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Hence my long-held stance that there’s really no such thing as a “religious” war. The aim of every war there has ever been has been to get one’s mitts on the other guy’s stuff. From the point of view of the leadership perhaps. But the “muscle” doing the bidding needs to be properly indoctrinated/educated. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/34 "2015-11-14T19:24:21Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Combine \*\*Martin’s \*\*very thoughtful post #2 with **coremelt’s** very informative post #5 and I think you have a pretty good answer to the OP’s question. Yeah, I think my premise that most of the people are nice and want peace was wrong. Apparently those that did have largely fled the country, and maybe there weren’t enough of them to put up a good resistance movement to begin with. Those that are left don’t have enough power to do much. Shitty situation. Thanks for the replies. I’ve been following the thread, but didn’t have much to add, because like I said, my knowledge regarding all this is limited. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/35 "2015-11-14T23:02:56Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > On another board it was pointed out that this is the latest step in a war 1500 years old. It’s just been quiet the past 100 years or so due to the utter dominance of Europe, which is now weakening. There is no 1500 year old war except in the minds of the occasional rabble rouser, (Muslim or Christian), who chooses to argue nonsense in order to direct attention away from internal issues by creating external enemies, then pretending that they have “always” been enemies. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/36 "2015-11-14T23:57:40Z")
Most people are too busy for jihad and revolution. They have jobs and kids to take care of. If there’s 30% unemployment and no prospects for the future the young men might have time for other things. Even then, doesn’t bombing and shooting people preclude them from being “nice”? Do nice people gun down civilians or bomb buildings or sit around in rubble in sweltering heat all day so they can snipe one enemy? That’s how you take down governments. Or maybe I misunderstood and “nice” in this case just means “agree with America.” If you thought America was going to hell in a hand basket would you start emulating Timothy McVeigh? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/37 "2015-11-15T02:12:56Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > I don’t follow the goings on in that part of the world closely, because it’s fucking depressing, but I keep hearing how the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, wonderful people. OK, fine. Why aren’t any of them in charge of shit? It seems like that part of the world is completely dominated by horrible people and people even worse than the horrible people they just overthrew. If 99% of the population is good and peace-loving, how have these dickhead war-mongers come to dominate everything in the region? Why aren’t the nice people taking over? Are they even trying? > > I am angry about the Paris attacks, and about the Syria situation, and ISIS, but I’m also just baffled. I do believe most of the people over there are good people. I just don’t get how the bad minority has gotten so powerful that it seems like the good people just have to flee the entire Middle East instead of telling them to fuck off. Surely there is power in numbers? Why isn’t that working? 1. Dick-head warmongers tend to win power, being dick-heard warmongers. That’s true in every part of the world. You can’t blame the nice people for that. 2. You’re wrong - there are plenty of non-dickhead warmongers in charge. You just don’t notice them because everyone is talking about the dickheads. Look at a chart of countries by Muslim population and you’ll get more perspective. 3. The fact that a dozen or so terrorist assholes shot up Paris doesn’t mean 99% of the Muslim world is dickheads. ISIS is a small organization of probably less than 100,000 or so supporters. You are doing exactly what they want you to do - think they are bigger and more powerful than they are through acts of terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/38 "2015-11-16T00:42:36Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > The Kurds. And that’s it as a force that controls the bulk of the population. Israel does not count as they are basically a western nation. I know if the Kurds are better than others. Of course I don’t subscribe to saying whole populations of the Middle East are bad or that those in the Middle East should feel guilty and responsible for the Paris attacks, which is nonsense. This notion that minorities should speak out or else they are morally responsible is nonsense and racism. Of course Whites seem to be exempt, you never hear whites being asked to apologize and speak out for the sicko who shot up a movie theater or college campus. Back to the Mid East, I don’t see things as black and white, or bad or good. Of course ISIS is bad, but in the region a portion will hold traditional ideas while others will be more modern, forward thinking. Some Kurds are very tribal people, even by the region’s standards. And there have been reports of human rights abuses by Kurds against Arabs, Turkomens in Iraq and Syria. It’s a myth that minorities in the Middle East are always fun loving, “good guys”. Take the Maronite Christians in Lebanon, some of their actions by their militias in the Lebanese civil war were among the worst committed. Again I am not bashing one group over the other, but this notion of who is good and who is bad is really a fool’s errand and not accurate. Iranians are no more better than Saudis, or Kurds than Arabs, Muslims than Christians and on and on. I just don’t like when one group is held above another. One example is Iranians who say something along the line of “Iranians should not be compared with Arabs, we are educated people”. Excuse me, Iranians are not better than Arabs, that is just bogus, racist crap talk! Oh and Iranians are living under one the worst regimes, even among regional standards. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/39 "2015-11-16T07:37:29Z")
> [@Nema98](#): > > I know if the Kurds are better than others. Of course I don’t subscribe to saying whole populations of the Middle East are bad or that those in the Middle East should feel guilty and responsible for the Paris attacks, which is nonsense. This notion that minorities should speak out or else they are morally responsible is nonsense and racism. Of course Whites seem to be exempt, you never hear whites being asked to apologize and speak out for the sicko who shot up a movie theater or college campus. > > Back to the Mid East, I don’t see things as black and white, or bad or good. Of course ISIS is bad, but in the region a portion will hold traditional ideas while others will be more modern, forward thinking. > > Some Kurds are very tribal people, even by the region’s standards. And there have been reports of human rights abuses by Kurds against Arabs, Turkomens in Iraq and Syria. > It’s a myth that minorities in the Middle East are always fun loving, “good guys”. Take the Maronite Christians in Lebanon, some of their actions by their militias in the Lebanese civil war were among the worst committed. > > Again I am not bashing one group over the other, but this notion of who is good and who is bad is really a fool’s errand and not accurate. Iranians are no more better than Saudis, or Kurds than Arabs, Muslims than Christians and on and on. > > I just don’t like when one group is held above another. One example is Iranians who say something along the line of “Iranians should not be compared with Arabs, we are educated people”. Excuse me, Iranians are not better than Arabs, that is just bogus, racist crap talk! Oh and Iranians are living under one the worst regimes, even among regional standards. It’s not a racial thing, it’s more an empirical observations about how the Kurds have handles themseles in Iraq. They are not perfect, but by comparison to others in the region they are veritable saints. Iran is ruled by a theocracy and actively exports terror to get its wait. The Sunni and Shia in Iraq are in a blood feud and the MOMENT they got Sadaams boot off their neck they started taking revenge on Sunnis, with the latter allowing ISIS to take over their population centers. How did the Iraq kurds react? Taking in people being slaughtered by ISIS, everyone? no, but more than most. They stood firm against ISIS forces while the Shia Iraqi army cut and ran. They are the main group with a spine and seem to be slightly more altruistic than the Shia who gave zero f\*cks about Sunni towns being overrun by ISIS, they were like, not our people so PEACE, not our problem. Women fight with the men among the kurds where necessary, they are far more open and tolerant. Compared to liberals in California, no but we are talking about the middle east here. You may not like one group being elevated above others, but that’s too bad. They ARE Better. That’s just a fact, not because if their race or theology, because of their actual behavior. So even though there are kurds who act out in Turkey in opposition to The Islamists in Erdogan, as a whole they are on the side of the angels compared to the rest of the groups in the region. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/40 "2015-11-16T08:46:09Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > … They are not perfect, but by comparison to others in the region they are veritable saints. The american fetishization of the Kurds is not healthy, not for the Kurds where the reality is very less nice than the kind of the Disney version here presented and not for making informed decisions. (and yes I would ally with the Kurdish groups, but it is not needed to Disneyfy them as done here) > [@](#): > > Iran is ruled by a theocracy and actively exports terror to get its wait. They actively are active in their neighborhood around what they consider their peoples (the Shia groups, regardless of the ethnicity). I am sure they would prefer to use the drones like the americans do and target “patterns of movement” and say very sincerely sorry about wedding parties blown up, but… > [@](#): > > They stood firm against ISIS forces while the Shia Iraqi army cut and ran The Iraqi national army that collapsed was not Shia [arab], it was the non-sectarian organization of the units. And it suffered from the massive corruption of the central state. Saying Kurds stood firm and Shia [Arab] fled is to display gross ignorance even to misrepresentation (as is a simplified idea of the Kurds welcoming refugees, the Kurdish reaction to the arab-speaking refugees, many that the Kurds consider interlopers settled by Sadaam [often true] has not been nice) Of course the allowing of the corruption and the undermining of the non-sectarian national army has to be blamed on the prior extremely sectarian administration of al Maliki, who also with his militia base destroyed the the reconciliation that had been done prior to him under the american sponsored Awakenings. > [@](#): > > They are the main group with a spine and seem to be slightly more altruistic than the Shia who gave zero f\*cks about Sunni towns being overrun by ISIS, they were like, not our people so PEACE, not our problem. That is a very fallacious rendition of what happened, including a complete lack of understanding of how the mixed units of the national army broke apart and why - very much from the _ **political** _ acts of the then central Administration of al Maliki that was extremely sectarian and broke apart the fragile reconciliation built up to his administration (2010-2014). Sunni arab elements defected or melted away for real and specific reasons (no ammunition, corruptly sold, etc.). The problem with these naratives is their simplification they disguise real fundamental issues and make the soldiers acting seem as if things happened for “eternal” reasons and not direct reasons. When one starts from a circus mirror vision, one gets circus mirror results. and of course when one starts with a lack of any understanding of the history > [@](#): > > So even though there are kurds who act out in Turkey in opposition to The Islamists in Erdogan, as a whole they are on the side of the angels compared to the rest of the groups in the region. the Turkish Kurdish terror/guerilla group, PKK, was not “acting out” against Erdogan - in fact until this past year they had been at general peace with the Erdogan party. Their bloodiest actions were during the period of the pure Secular parties government rule in Turkey. Of course they have also been in bloody conflict with the more tribal Iraqi kurdish duopoly party in the past. Talking about the PKK acting out against Islamists in Turkey is a gross distortion. It was with them they made peace until this year. The break apart is more about politics than ‘islamist’ (as whatever the veneer of the Marxist - secularism the PKK wears, the Kurdish reasons (language) of their revolt are the primary, the Kurdish regions being among the most culturally and religiously conservative in the real practice in Turkey). The Kurdish groups remain the best allies against the DAESH, in the Kurdish areas, and neighboring, but Disneyfication of them to imagine they are something like Little Americans Struggling to Get Out is a too typical American error to make. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513.md?page=3)