# Where are the good guys in the Middle East? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513 "2015-11-14T01:11:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/41 "2015-11-16T19:01:12Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > If you thought America was going to hell in a hand basket would you start emulating Timothy McVeigh? My guess is that most of the people (and there are a whole lot of them actually) just vote Tea Party or some other stripe of Republican. Or possibly Democrat, depending on just what kind of handbasket we’re in. McVeigh is a pretty unique outlier, and I think that’s a pretty informative example. I think there has to be a lot more going on than just religion in the ME to cause this. I think it’s probably a combination of institutional disenfranchisement, disillusionment with the prospects of how things are going socially and economically and religicized politics and demagoguery. I kind of envision it as the whole climate of the recent police/black issues writ large, and with the heat turned up a lot. Where we see demonstrations, small-scale violence, and a lot of angry rhetoric for much the same reasons, the ME sees all that, plus more violence, and other people who identify with them due to religion coming to help out with the violent part, even though their countries are relatively democratic, moderate and not impoverished. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/42 "2015-11-16T19:10:34Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > That’s just a fact, not because if their race or theology, because of their actual behavior. Tell that to the substantially Kurdish [Ansar al-Islam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam). Have to agree with **Ramira** - don’t fetishize them as the “good guys.” The Kurds don’t march in lockstep anymore than anyone else, as the history of frequent fratricidal conflicts between the PUK, KDP, PKK and groups like Ansar al-Islam, with numerous shifting alliances, demonstrates ( and these aren’t [old wounds](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdish_Civil_War) ). The rural parts of Iraqi Kurdistan is a hotbed of honor killings and other tribal atavisms like the blood feud. The Iraqi Kurds currently dominating the north of that country ( the old rival KDP and PUK for the most part ) are about the perhaps pro-U.S. factions in the region, but that’s on a highly relative scale and shouldn’t imply that they are boy scouts. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/43 "2015-11-16T19:13:51Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > Israel does not count as they are basically a western nation. And it’s not as though Israel is conspicuously putting its “good guys” in the driver’s seat, either. Most Israelis are good people who are not in favor of, e.g., settlers attacking Palestinians in the occupied territories with no legal consequences, or fundamentalist zealots taking over Palestinian land and demanding military protection for their encroachments because “G-d gave this land to the Jews in perpetuity”. Yet the _de facto_ policies of the Israeli regime are condoning and facilitating this kind of extremism. If even a strong and modern democratic state like Israel is disproportionately influenced in its policies by its minority of fanatics and extremists, it’s not very surprising that dictatorships, oligarchies and failed states among its neighbors are experiencing the same problems in a far worse form. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/44 "2015-11-16T21:09:21Z")
This thread is an ever present reminder of the mission of this board. There are a hell of a lot of ignorant members on this site. SDMB keep fighting the ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/45 "2015-11-17T00:59:21Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > The american fetishization of the Kurds is not healthy, not for the Kurds where the reality is very less nice than the kind of the Disney version here presented and not for making informed decisions. (and yes I would ally with the Kurdish groups, but it is not needed to Disneyfy them as done here) I do have rose colored glasses towards the group, but that is rooted in large part on the comparison to other groups in the region. But I don’t think they are literal saints, just saint like compared to their neighbors. > [@](#): > > The Iraqi national army that collapsed was not Shia [arab], it was the non-sectarian organization of the units. And it suffered from the massive corruption of the central state. > > Saying Kurds stood firm and Shia [Arab] fled is to display gross ignorance even to misrepresentation (as is a simplified idea of the Kurds welcoming refugees, the Kurdish reaction to the arab-speaking refugees, many that the Kurds consider interlopers settled by Sadaam [often true] has not been nice) > > Of course the allowing of the corruption and the undermining of the non-sectarian national army has to be blamed on the prior extremely sectarian administration of al Maliki, who also with his militia base destroyed the the reconciliation that had been done prior to him under the american sponsored Awakenings. > That is a very fallacious rendition of what happened, including a complete lack of understanding of how the mixed units of the national army broke apart and why - very much from the _ **political** _ acts of the then central Administration of al Maliki that was extremely sectarian and broke apart the fragile reconciliation built up to his administration (2010-2014). Sunni arab elements defected or melted away for real and specific reasons (no ammunition, corruptly sold, etc.). > > The problem with these naratives is their simplification they disguise real fundamental issues and make the soldiers acting seem as if things happened for “eternal” reasons and not direct reasons. > > When one starts from a circus mirror vision, one gets circus mirror results. > > and of course when one starts with a lack of any understanding of the history So the previous fall of Ramadi was primarily a function of lack of weapons and Sunnis leaving? What % of the Iraqi forces that fled Ramadi were Sunni? Was it almost all Sunni? Mostly Shia? Mixed? The lack of weapons is more legitimate, the Sunnis leaving and giving up is not. Not when the alternative is allowing ISIS to take the area. I’ve read reports that if they stayed and fought they could have held on. But perhaps you have sources that even staying would have netted a fall of the city. The fact remains, they retreated from Ramadi and it fell. Kobani didn’t. The wobbly resolve, even in the face of death does not seem to be as prevalent among the Kurdish population. That is a virtue, not something to be diminished and explained away. Whatever the reasons behind it, it makes the Kurds looks better and the Sunni/Shia groups look worse. And the point of this thread was to identify any good guys in the middle east, would you cross off the kurds from that potential list? Because they still seem like the best candidates. > [@](#): > > the Turkish Kurdish terror/guerilla group, PKK, was not “acting out” against Erdogan - in fact until this past year they had been at general peace with the Erdogan party. Their bloodiest actions were during the period of the pure Secular parties government rule in Turkey. Of course they have also been in bloody conflict with the more tribal Iraqi kurdish duopoly party in the past. > > Talking about the PKK acting out against Islamists in Turkey is a gross distortion. It was with them they made peace until this year. The break apart is more about politics than ‘islamist’ (as whatever the veneer of the Marxist - secularism the PKK wears, the Kurdish reasons (language) of their revolt are the primary, the Kurdish regions being among the most culturally and religiously conservative in the real practice in Turkey). > > The Kurdish groups remain the best allies against the DAESH, in the Kurdish areas, and neighboring, but Disneyfication of them to imagine they are something like Little Americans Struggling to Get Out is a too typical American error to make. I don’t know enough about the Turkey/Kurdish conflict to say with any confidence what is going on, I’ve heard the kurds in Iraq are more conservative and aligned with Erdogan while the PKK is more secular and hostile. I don’t know who instigated the violence, All I know is Erdogan rubs me the wrong way from reports I hear about his Islamist roots and trying to roll back secular control in Turkey. Those reports could be wrong, but I’ve heard he turned a blind eye to ISIS operating in his country before they turned on him. And yes, the idea that there are more secular leaning Kurds in Turkey makes the group more endearing to me. I’m secular, and I want them to be ascendant over the parties of god, because I don’t want to live in a theocracy and want to see people that want to move us closer to that weakened. I am not a neutral liberal, I am extremely biased in favor of groups that are closer to my world view. Which is why I am more hostile to Islamists than christians, because the latter is not trying to murder me or people like me. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/46 "2015-11-19T18:18:43Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > I do have rose colored glasses towards the group, but that is rooted in large part on the comparison to other groups in the region. But I don’t think they are literal saints, just saint like compared to their neighbors. > > So the previous fall of Ramadi was primarily a function of lack of weapons and Sunnis leaving? > > What % of the Iraqi forces that fled Ramadi were Sunni? Was it almost all Sunni? Mostly Shia? Mixed? > > The lack of weapons is more legitimate, the Sunnis leaving and giving up is not. Not when the alternative is allowing ISIS to take the area. I’ve read reports that if they stayed and fought they could have held on. But perhaps you have sources that even staying would have netted a fall of the city. > > The fact remains, they retreated from Ramadi and it fell. Kobani didn’t. The wobbly resolve, even in the face of death does not seem to be as prevalent among the Kurdish population. That is a virtue, not something to be diminished and explained away. > > Whatever the reasons behind it, it makes the Kurds looks better and the Sunni/Shia groups look worse. > > And the point of this thread was to identify any good guys in the middle east, would you cross off the kurds from that potential list? Because they still seem like the best candidates. > > I don’t know enough about the Turkey/Kurdish conflict to say with any confidence what is going on, I’ve heard the kurds in Iraq are more conservative and aligned with Erdogan while the PKK is more secular and hostile. I don’t know who instigated the violence, All I know is Erdogan rubs me the wrong way from reports I hear about his Islamist roots and trying to roll back secular control in Turkey. > > Those reports could be wrong, but I’ve heard he turned a blind eye to ISIS operating in his country before they turned on him. And yes, the idea that there are more secular leaning Kurds in Turkey makes the group more endearing to me. I’m secular, and I want them to be ascendant over the parties of god, because I don’t want to live in a theocracy and want to see people that want to move us closer to that weakened. > I am not a neutral liberal, I am extremely biased in favor of groups that are closer to my world view. Which is why I am more hostile to Islamists than christians, because the latter is not trying to murder me or people like me. Look I agree with you on Turkey. I don’t think he supports ISIS and he may have turned a blind eye on groups who come in and out from Turkey and Syria. And he has used the conflict to go after Kurds, with most of the Turkish strikes in Syria against Kurdish targets. The general elections in June saw the Kurdish party win a minority, hence taking the majority away from President Erdogan and Prime Minister Davutoglu’s AKP party. As a result Erdogan was inflaming violence to punish the Kurdish party. The recent election results on Nov 1 was the best outcome for Turkey. The AKP ruling party won majority and it took the excuse away from Erdogan from going after the Kurdish parties and plunging Turkey back into violence. On the other hand AKP did not win a supermajority which would have allowed for constitutional changes that would have seen President Erdogan get far reaching powers and perhaps becoming a dea-facto dictator. So that is good for democracy in Turkey. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2015, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/47 "2015-11-20T09:22:24Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > If you travel in most middle eastern countries the individuals will indeed be wonderfully friendly and hospitable to you. Yes they are “good” people, but they really do not have the same value system as the west. Take a look at the PEW polls on islam: > [The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society | Pew Research Center](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/) Scholar Reza Aslan responds to that same poll in [this video](http://weeklypress.com/islam-in-the-city-of-brotherly-love-p531-97.htm) (it starts at about 2:51). To sum it up, he points out that the same poll also said that 75% wanted more religious freedom - which shows the contradictions you will get when polling people on opinions when they spent most or all of their life in a place in a theocracy. Why is it a shock that people who are afraid to speak their mind will say some contradictory things when they get the chance? As he says “Religious lived experience is filled with contradictions.” He also points out how in the same poll, there is a very wide definition of what exactly Sharia Law is. Finally, he also goes on to say that the same questions for neighboring Islamic-majority countries are far different. These kinds of inconsistencies don’t only happen to Muslim savages. An Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll in 2012 shows that [only around a quarter](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/06/10/if-you-dont-think-the-wafer-turns-into-jesus-youre-not-really-a-catholic/) of self-professed Catholics believed in transubstantiation despite that being a tenet of Catholicism. There are many more polls of Catholics - particularly American Catholics - where the things they believe or don’t believe would make then apostates. The spectrum of Christian beliefs range across a very huge scale and only by invoking a Scotsman and his Haggis can one say that the nice Episcopalian lady next door is Christian but Fred Phelps isn’t. There’s a bunch of people on the other side who feel that a man who went into a Lutheran church and gunned down a man who was there to worship was the real Christian of the two because [he happened to shoot down George Tiller](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_George_Tiller#Arrest_of_murder_suspect), a man who provided abortions. But yeah, be careful of opinion polls on people who are usually unable to express opinions. They are pretty likely to have inconsistencies. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/48 "2015-11-20T20:26:36Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Today, the Frankenstein creators of US foreign policy could reflect just a little on the ISIS monster they gave life to. > > . Or was it the USSR by invading Afghanistan? Or the Brits by carving up the ottoman Empire? Or the Ottomans themselves? The US no more “created” ISIL than the Ottomans did. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/49 "2015-11-21T00:18:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Or was it the USSR by invading Afghanistan? Or the Brits by carving up the ottoman Empire? Or the Ottomans themselves? The US no more “created” ISIL than the Ottomans did. Doug Bandow, senior fellow at the CATO Institute and former assistant to Ronald Reagan, while writing for the conservative [National Interest](http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-collapse-iraq-the-rise-isis-made-america-13913) concluded: > [@](#): > > In short, but for the Bush administration’s decision to blow up Iraq there would have been no Islamic State rampaging through a chaotic Mesopotamia. The invasion was the critical mistake. The botched occupation compounded that initial error. Even by the GOP presidential contenders’ own flawed standard—failing to maintain an Iraqi troop presence—President Bush is most responsible for the ISIS deluge. > > The Obama administration has played a malign, but secondary, role. Like its predecessor it also intervened too much rather than too little. > > It is impossible to ignore the tragedy now overwhelming the Middle East. Washington bears substantial responsibility for the catastrophic conflict. Although President Barack Obama shares the blame, George W. Bush made the most important decisions leading to the destruction of Iraq and rise of ISIL. No candidate unable or unwilling to learn from their disastrous mistakes is qualified to sit in the Oval Office. Fortunately for you, I don’t believe it disqualifies you from posting here, **DrDeth**. And no mention of the Ottomans (or [Otto](http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/0/09/Otto_Mann.png/revision/latest?cb=20130930205930), man). But make no mistake: Things didn’t happen in a vacuum. America made a lot of mistakes in the Middle East and arguably continues to be sub-optimal in dealing with the region; why is it so hard to conclude that had those mistakes were a contributing factor to the rise of ISIS? You really think that we could do what we did there for as long as we did it and not have an affect? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/50 "2015-11-21T00:25:39Z")
We spent a century helping brutal dictators suppress the guys who tried to lead liberal democratic reforms. Is it any surprise that there’s no one left to lead a liberal democratic movement? By threat, the Kurd are liberalish and democraticish. Women are equalish in Kirdisj society and serve on leadership positions in the Kurdish military. Guess what? We always screw the Kurds. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/51 "2015-11-21T01:23:21Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Scholar Reza Aslan responds to that same poll in [this video](http://weeklypress.com/islam-in-the-city-of-brotherly-love-p531-97.htm) (it starts at about 2:51). To sum it up, he points out that the same poll also said that 75% wanted more religious freedom - which shows the contradictions you will get when polling people on opinions when they spent most or all of their life in a place in a theocracy. Why is it a shock that people who are afraid to speak their mind will say some contradictory things when they get the chance? To me the most suprising contradiction was in Pakistan where 75% of Muslims think that people of other faiths are free to practice [(yeah, right)](http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2010/06/state_persecution_and_pakistans_ahmadi_sect) , and 96% (or 72% cumulative) of those say this is a good thing. Also in Pakistan, 84% of Muslims “favor making Islamic law the official law in their country”, and 76% of those, or 64% of Muslims, favor “taking the life of those who abandon Islam”. So a majority of Muslims can somehow support religious freedom, while a majority of Muslims in the same country support killing someone for converting away from Islam. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/52 "2015-11-21T01:29:01Z")
I wonder what whacky, scary results polls of Americans would produce. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/53 "2015-11-21T01:45:16Z")
44% of Americans think Bigfoot is a Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2015, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/54 "2015-11-21T08:20:59Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > So a majority of Muslims can somehow support religious freedom, while a majority of Muslims in the same country support killing someone for converting away from Islam. Muslim tolerance of religions is often tolerance only of Christianity and Judaism, which supposedly worship the same god, and not pagan or animist religions. The Koran advocates a level of tolerance for “people of the Book”, that is, those who have an Abrahamic faith. So yes, one can tolerate other religions but only a subset of them. That’s what they mean by “religious freedom”. The thing is, the hope is always that those other people of the Book will convert to Islam, and once you convert to Islam you are never, ever permitted to become anything else. Hence, they’ll tolerate people raised as Jews and Christians because their holly book tells them to, but still advocate the death penalty for people leaving Islam because, again, that’s what their holy book says. In context it does make a sort of sense. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513/55 "2015-11-21T10:25:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Women are equalish in Kirdisj society This is the Disneyfication of the Kurds. It is not only not true in substance, it avoids the reality that the honor killing runs deep in the Kurdish society (as it does in the non-muslims related groups). > [@](#): > > and serve on leadership positions in the Kurdish military. . a sweeping statement that is also not true across the Kurdish groups. PKK some, others not really. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-good-guys-in-the-middle-east/737513.md?page=2)