# Where are the pro-gay moslems? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2004, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648 "2004-09-23T09:34:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/41 "2004-09-24T17:45:48Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > **John Mace** , why do you hate the Mid-Paleolithic? You know, I did vote FOR the funding of the Magdalenian tool kit… before I voted AGAINST it. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/42 "2004-09-25T00:42:38Z")
Kimstu said: > [@](#): > > (By the way, six, nobody much minds if you prefer not to use capital letters in your posts; but if you are going to follow convention in capitalizing names like “European”, “Arab”, and “America”, it is a bit impolite not to do so for similar names such as “Moslem” (or “Muslim”) and “Islamic”.) I don’t agree. I never capitalise the names of followers of ideologies. Would you capitalise the words “communist” or “national socialist”? Maybe this is just a personal quirk I have but I treat all ideologies the same hence I would say communist, national socialist, democrat, christian, muslim, jew etc. Maybe I just think that capitalising them lends them a degree of respect which they don’t deserve. As regards homosexuality in islam: as Tamerlane noted, the requirement is for four witnesses. Since you will never get four witnesses you will never get caught and punished. Whilst the punishments may be severe in islam (as noted by gum) the practical fact is that homosexuals will never be caught. So we are left with one of those weird situations whereby homosexuality is seen as a serious sin but also (at the same time) it is seen as a minor infringement, God thinks it’s bad but He also requires a ridiculously high level of evidence to prove it. The net result of all this, on the ground, (in muslim countries) is that homosexuality is officially frowned upon by the church but it’s not something they are going to put a lot of effort into dealing with. In other words, their position is almost exactly the same as in western countries. They arrive at the same point just via a different route. The view of homosexuality in islam is that it is roundly condemned but then it all gets a bit vague after that. “Throw them off high buildings”, “boil them in a vat of oil” etc but only if the correct proof is forthcoming. And the correct proof will never be forthcoming - how many homosexuals in here have ever had full sex in front of four witnesses? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/43 "2004-09-25T02:32:02Z")
> [@Jojo](#): > > As regards homosexuality in islam: as Tamerlane noted, the requirement is for four witnesses. Since you will never get four witnesses you will never get caught and punished. Whilst the punishments may be severe in islam (as noted by gum) the practical fact is that homosexuals will never be caught. “Never” is a bit strong, isn’t it? It doesn’t seem too implausible to me that, if two Muslim men are already suspected of having a “sinful” relationship, someone might organize a little posse to burst in on them in flagrante delicto. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/44 "2004-09-25T04:23:38Z")
Meet [Itrath Syed](http://www.itrathsyed.ca/), and BC NDP candidate in the last election. Here’s her [open letter](http://www.womennet.ca/news.php?show&1888) regarding perceived incongruity between her consonance with the NDP platform’s support for gay marriage and her muslim faith. > [@](#): > > My position is very clear. I support the principle that all human beings in Canada must be equal under Canadian law and have the same rights in Canada. Every single person. > > This is a critical principle that insures the protection of every minority community in Canada including the Muslim community. Without this principle we are all vulnerable to having our civil rights eroded and our safety threatened. I hope she runs again. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/45 "2004-09-25T05:23:06Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > You know, I did vote FOR the funding of the Magdalenian tool kit… before I voted AGAINST it. Can’t blame you. While the original proposal would’ve relied on stones carried in from the quarry by the strongest members of our tribe, the revised proposal called for our cave walls to be broken down to make tools. Where will our offspring go to seek shelter from the monsoons? Won’t somebody please think of the cavechildren? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/46 "2004-09-25T06:49:09Z")
Given what I know about marriage laws in “the Muslim world”, I’m not sure that gay marriage is something that any sane homosexual in these places would want. It’s my understanding that the Koran itself is pretty fair when it comes to the rights and responsibilities of marriage partners, but this is not the way marriage is practiced in the stricter Islamic theocracies. I doubt many gay Muslim men are sitting around thinking “If only I had the right to be treated as chattel by another man!” Lesbian marriages would be even more impractical, given the low status of women in most Islamic theocracies. I’d think it would be pretty hard to keep your household running if neither partner were allowed to drive, enter into most professions, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/47 "2004-09-25T07:45:12Z")
Right about the time the Iraq war started, because I have a sick sense of humor and have met my share of Gay GIs, I Googled “Gar Bars In Iraq”. Believe it or not, there was an obscure email reference about a place where men gathered to meet foreigners. I didn’t find it when I tried to Google it again tonight. But as a Gay man, I find it sad that Germany and Holland and other countries have no problem with letting me, and my lover of 23 years get married, but here in the good 'ol USA, we are still considered barely legal to be together in some states. But give me a break…this is a culture that doesn’t even allow women to drive a car, do you possibly think they would allow men to suck a dick? There are battles to be fought, but in the grand scheme of things, this isn’t one of them at this point in time. BTW, I know this is great debates and not cafe society, but while I was living in Germany, I met a guy who claimed his ex-lover met a leader of an Arab country and became his lover. But when gorgeous, buff, blonde German lover (I saw the picture) decided to (foolishly) break up with the Arab leader, he was killed. No story of that was going to leave the country. ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/48 "2004-09-25T08:27:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t know about Muslims generally, but I’ve always understood male homosexuality to be very a very widespread practice among the Arabs – almost as much so as with the ancient Greeks. Am I wrong? Having worked in the Gulf, I can state that as a practical matter homosexual relations are pretty common although rather private. (No first hand experience, but males are, at least, pretty open about this stuff in conversation.) It seems to be a tolerated sexual outlet if kept quiet, but this apples to heterosexual relations as well. The Arab sexual repression(s) are a bit different than ours, but I’m not about to claim superiority. And a single male travelling in North Africa (as I have) can expect to be propositoned any number of times… to the point of it being kinda tiring. Non-vaginal sex acts (“maintaining virginity”) between single heterosexual couples is also way more common than you might think. In a society built around the letter of the law, the spirit of the law ends up being violated privately as a practical matter with some frequency. And actually the vast majority of Muslim nations allow women to drive cars. Heck, a few have a higher % of women in givernment than the US… ---
**Author:** ![Asteroide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@Asteroide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asteroide)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/49 "2004-09-25T10:34:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t know about Muslims generally, but I’ve always understood male homosexuality to be very a very widespread practice among the Arabs – almost as much so as with the ancient Greeks. Am I wrong? I think it’s safe to say that the prevalance of homosexuality amongst Arabs is similar to the prevalence of homosexuality in any other ethnic or cultural grouping. On the other hand I have met a number of Arab homosexuals who have left their countries of birth in order to be able to live their sexuality more freely. I believe one of the major fears of the anti-gay marriage contingent is that gay marriage would lead to an influx of homosexual immigration. > [@Six\_Personalities](#): > > So why is a ban on homosexuality such an affront in America and seen as perfectly OK in the islamic world?Is it purely because it’s islamic,so we can’t criticize them,but have to accept it as part of their culture.Or is there more to it? A better question might be : why is homosexuality in a repressive country not considered a sufficient reason to apply for refugee status in the US or Europe ? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/50 "2004-09-25T20:23:19Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > But give me a break…this is a culture that doesn’t even allow women to drive a car, do you possibly think they would allow men to suck a dick? No cite, but I understand Islamic law doesn’t even allow a **woman** to suck dick, nor a man to get his dick sucked. Big bad taboo, against the law of the Prophet or something. And cunnilingus? That’s something Muslims probably wouldn’t admit they’ve ever even **heard** of. ---
**Author:** ![Asteroide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@Asteroide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asteroide)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/51 "2004-09-25T21:57:54Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > But give me a break…this is a culture that doesn’t even allow women to drive a car, do you possibly think they would allow men to suck a dick? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No cite, but I understand Islamic law doesn’t even allow a **woman** to suck dick, nor a man to get his dick sucked. Big bad taboo, against the law of the Prophet or something. And cunnilingus? That’s something Muslims probably wouldn’t admit they’ve ever even **heard** of. Cars and cunnilingus… Would you guys happen to have cites for any of this ? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/52 "2004-09-25T22:01:29Z")
> [@Asteroide](#): > > Cars and cunnilingus… > > Would you guys happen to have cites for any of this ? My only cite for the no-oral-sex rule would by the 1986 novel _Kabul_ by M.E. Hirsh. Are there any Muslims who can help out here? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/53 "2004-09-25T22:12:01Z")
Well, according to this site – [http://members.tripod.com/~AmirRiaz/sex/sex\_queries.htm#oral](http://members.tripod.com/~AmirRiaz/sex/sex_queries.htm#oral) – near as I can tell, within marriage, you’re allowed to suck but not swallow: > [@](#): > > **Oral Sex** > > A married couple have the right to enjoy each other in whatever way they wish, and to have intercourse in the place through which conception may occur, in any position he wishes, as Allah says: > > “Your wives are a tilth for you, so go to your tilth when or how you will . . .” [al-Baqarah 2:223] > > Intercourse is forbidden for the husband in two situations: > > (1) At the time of the monthly period, as Allah says: “They ask you concerning menstruation. Say: that is an adha (a harmful thing), therefore keep away from women during their menses, and go not unto them till they have purified themselves. And when they have purified themselves, then go into them as Allah has ordained for you. Truly, Allah loves those who turn unto Him in repentance and loves those who purify themselves.” [al-Baqarah 2:222] > > (2) Anal intercourse. The Messenger of Allah (Peace & Blessings of Allah be upon Him) said: “He is cursed ,the one who has intercourse with his wife in her anus.” (Reported by Abu Dawud and Imam Ahmad, and deemed saheeh in Saheeh al-Jaami‘, 5889). > > Another hadith refers to both issues mentioned above: “Avoid the anus and the time of menstruation.” (reported by Ahmad and Abu Dawud; see also Saheeh al-Jaami‘, 1141). > > The issue of oral sex is governed by two conditions: > > (1) It should not cause any harm, > (2) It should not lead to any naajis (impure) substance being swallowed. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/54 "2004-09-26T03:20:04Z")
> [@Asteroide](#): > > Cars and cunnilingus… > > Would you guys happen to have cites for any of this ? I don’t know anything about what, if any, sexual practices are forbidden by the Koran. . .and I’m sure that if any _are_ forbidden, plenty of people perform them anyway. However, women in Saudi Arabia really aren’t allowed to drive. A quick Google indicates that this is the only country with such a law, although I would suspect that there are other regions where women driving is unofficially banned. I turned up tons of links on the subject, but here’s a story from the BBC about this issue: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/3752989.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3752989.stm) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/55 "2004-09-26T03:33:52Z")
Amnesty International’s gay and lesbian section is constantly complaining about gay rights in Muslim countries, of which one of the most prominent recent cases has been the Queen Boat arrests in Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![Asteroide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@Asteroide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asteroide)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/56 "2004-09-26T09:47:46Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > However, women in Saudi Arabia really aren’t allowed to drive. A quick Google indicates that this is the only country with such a law, although I would suspect that there are other regions where women driving is unofficially banned. I turned up tons of links on the subject, but here’s a story from the BBC about this issue: > > [BBC NEWS | Middle East | Crash sparks Saudi driving debate](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3752989.stm) Although it is certainly true that women are prohibited from driving in Saudi Arabia, SA constitutes what, 1% of the Muslim world ? I’m not aware of any other country where women are prohibited from driving, and your article only references Saudi Arabia. I believe this notion is something akin to an urban legend, and maybe it keeps popping up because driving is such a central part of American life ? I’d be interested if you find any info demonstrating otherwise - though we seem to be getting kind of off the subject here. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/57 "2004-09-26T14:59:28Z")
> [@Asteroide](#): > > Although it is certainly true that women are prohibited from driving in Saudi Arabia, SA constitutes what, 1% of the Muslim world ? True – but Saudi Arabia, homeland of the Prophet and cradle of Islam, is arguably the most culturally important country in the Islamic world. What happens there matters elsewhere. If SA were to liberalize, that would set an example for other Islamic countries. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/58 "2004-09-26T15:12:58Z")
**BG:** _If SA were to liberalize, that would set an example for other Islamic countries._ Most of which, as has been pointed out, already **are** more liberal than SA. I’m not saying that SA’s radically reactionary policies ought not to change, but I don’t think the rest of the Islamic world takes its cue from them to the extent that you’re suggesting. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/59 "2004-09-26T15:42:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **BG:** _If SA were to liberalize, that would set an example for other Islamic countries._ > > Most of which, as has been pointed out, already **are** more liberal than SA. I’m not saying that SA’s radically reactionary policies ought not to change, but I don’t think the rest of the Islamic world takes its cue from them to the extent that you’re suggesting. Not that they take a cue – but every Muslim who can afford the trip is supposed to visit Mecca at least once; that’s one of the Five Pillars of Islam. I think what they see when they go to SA for the hajj has some influence on their thinking – there’s a subtle message that this is the **real, pure** Islamic society. If they could visit SA and see unveiled women walking around in public and driving cars – or gay bars operating out in the open – or legal, licensed liquor stores – or democratic, secularized government! – that would have some effect on the rest of Dar al-Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648/60 "2004-09-26T15:43:15Z")
> [@Asteroide](#): > > Although it is certainly true that women are prohibited from driving in Saudi Arabia, SA constitutes what, 1% of the Muslim world ? I’m not aware of any other country where women are prohibited from driving, and your article only references Saudi Arabia. > > I believe this notion is something akin to an urban legend, and maybe it keeps popping up because driving is such a central part of American life ? > > I’d be interested if you find any info demonstrating otherwise - though we seem to be getting kind of off the subject here. Did you miss the part where I said “A quick Google indicates that this [Saudi Arabia] is the only country with such a law”? I don’t have time to seperate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to websites about the Middle East, but it appears that Saudi Arabia is the only country that currently _outlaws_ women drivers. This ban was unofficial until 1990 so it wouldn’t surprise me if there were other places where women were socially forbidden to drive, but it doesn’t appear to actually be against the law anywhere else in the world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-the-pro-gay-moslems/265648.md?page=4)