# Where are we going? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859 "2007-06-05T16:30:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/221 "2007-06-07T23:15:11Z")
**Der Trihs** So you don’t think that following a teaching that says that you should be humble enough to wash the feet of beggars, has any impact on the civilizing of human beings? You do not think that any individuals in history took some of those lessons seriously? Show me one example of Jesus being violent other than tossing around a couple of money-changing tables in the temple. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/222 "2007-06-07T23:21:00Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] **Der Trihs** So you don’t think that following a teaching that says that you should be humble enough to wash the feet of beggars, has any impact on the civilizing of human beings? You do not think that any individuals in history took some of those lessons seriously? Show me one example of Jesus being violent other than tossing around a couple of money-changing tables in the temple. [/QUOTE] Matthew, 18: 21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 After that, it is _on_ bitches!” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/223 "2007-06-07T23:21:58Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] No, in spite of them. The British subjugated and exploited India; they did not enlighten them. [/QUOTE] That’s a pretty juvenile view of history. While, I am not going to argue that Imperialism is some sort of salvation, I am trying to point out the universalizing influence of Christianity on western civilization. The purpose of Empire is to spread cross compatibility of measures, in a nutshell. Standard weights and measures facilitate trade. Now, having a common cosmology helped many people who would have otherwise been within their own tribal milieu worshipping their own Gods based off of natural forces, this causes a format problem. Think of transferring files from a Mac to a PC in the early 90s. Now, you come along with a set of universalizing features, features that will allow for cross-format compatibility. Through the course of history this evolved into the Secular Imperialism of Europe, based upon enlightenment ideals that had a lot of resemblances to Christian morality with less god-talk. What the British brought to India, was a Bureaucracy, without which, India would not be able to operate as a single state. Whether or not this is a good thing or a bad thing, I am not saying, I am only trying to use it to illustrate my point of the universalizing nature of Christianity and its effect on the western philosophical tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/224 "2007-06-07T23:22:00Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] **Der Trihs** So you don’t think that following a teaching that says that you should be humble enough to wash the feet of beggars, has any impact on the civilizing of human beings? You do not think that any individuals in history took some of those lessons seriously? [/quote] When they went forth and killed and tortured everyone who disagreed with them, they followed Christian teachings; “I come not to breing peace, but a sword” and all that. Mass death, conversion by the sword and general ruthlessness are all implicit in a belief system holds that it alone is true and all who disagree are either beings of infinite evil or will suffer forever in Hell ( so ANY measure is justifed to save them; killing billions to save one soul is an infinite benefit ), and that evidence is necessary for none of this. [QUOTE=mswas] Show me one example of Jesus being violent other than tossing around a couple of money-changing tables in the temple. [/QUOTE] He was a preacher; he instigated violence, without practicing it himself. Just by promoting his religion he promoted violence. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/225 "2007-06-07T23:23:11Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Matthew, 18: 21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 After that, it is _on_ bitches!” [/QUOTE] Praise God and pass the ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![Hubert\_Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hubert\_Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hubert_Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/226 "2007-06-07T23:25:32Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] **Der Trihs** So you don’t think that following a teaching that says that you should be humble enough to wash the feet of beggars, has any impact on the civilizing of human beings? You do not think that any individuals in history took some of those lessons seriously? Show me one example of Jesus being violent other than tossing around a couple of money-changing tables in the temple. [/QUOTE] I don’t argue that Jesus had some ideas that were progressive at the time, but for every passage about washing the feet of beggars there’s one like “The men of Judah captured another ten thousand (men) alive and took them to the top of the rock and threw them down from the top of the rock; and they were all dashed to pieces.” -2 Chronicles 25:12 ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/227 "2007-06-07T23:25:44Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] **Der Trihs** So you don’t think that following a teaching that says that you should be humble enough to wash the feet of beggars, has any impact on the civilizing of human beings? You do not think that any individuals in history took some of those lessons seriously? [/QUOTE] That is only a small part of Christian teaching. And it really does not seem to get much play except in conversations debating the merits of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/228 "2007-06-07T23:30:16Z")
[QUOTE=gazpacho] That is only a small part of Christian teaching. And it really does not seem to get much play except in conversations debating the merits of Christianity. [/QUOTE] It gets a lot of play in the Christian circles I run in. It’s quite important to Evangelicals in my experience. That’s why people like Mother Theresa are so well respected. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/229 "2007-06-07T23:31:22Z")
[QUOTE=Hubert Cumberdale] I don’t argue that Jesus had some ideas that were progressive at the time, but for every passage about washing the feet of beggars there’s one like “The men of Judah captured another ten thousand (men) alive and took them to the top of the rock and threw them down from the top of the rock; and they were all dashed to pieces.” -2 Chronicles 25:12 [/QUOTE] That’s not part of the Gospels. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn1767](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shawn1767](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn1767)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/230 "2007-06-07T23:34:32Z")
Because of the threat of hell or the promise of heaven, I would much more believe the sincerity of a secularist when they do a good deed than a Christian. It seems to me that Christians (from the debate so far) seem to think that they have to act right because it’s the “right thing to do.” Not because it’s something they find intrinsic value in. Who would you believe is more sincere? Someone who donated $1,000.00 to someone without expecting reward or punishment or someone who did the same because some higher being told him it was the “right thing to do” and that there would be a reward for doing so? (or a punishment for not doing so.) It’s as if Christians would not be able to control themselves without the dictatorship of God. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/231 "2007-06-07T23:40:38Z")
[QUOTE=Shawn1767] It’s as if Christians would not be able to control themselves without the dictatorship of God. [/QUOTE] And you wouldn’t be able to stand upright if not for the dictatorship of gravity? The point I was making is that Secular Humanism is a Christian heresy. It’s still essentially Christian, just without the iconography. Morality is something that is learned, you learned it from a bunch of Christian theologians, or at least the people who taught you did. It’s part of the western tradition, cannot be excised. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/232 "2007-06-07T23:48:42Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] And you wouldn’t be able to stand upright if not for the dictatorship of gravity? The point I was making is that Secular Humanism is a Christian heresy. It’s still essentially Christian, just without the iconography. Morality is something that is learned, you learned it from a bunch of Christian theologians, or at least the people who taught you did. It’s part of the western tradition, cannot be excised. [/QUOTE] Please most of the secular humanisms moral thought can be traced back to before Christianity. It’s not like being kind and decent to each other is unique to Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/233 "2007-06-07T23:52:58Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] And you wouldn’t be able to stand upright if not for the dictatorship of gravity? The point I was making is that Secular Humanism is a Christian heresy. It’s still essentially Christian, just without the iconography. Morality is something that is learned, you learned it from a bunch of Christian theologians, or at least the people who taught you did. It’s part of the western tradition, cannot be excised. [/QUOTE] No, it is in opposition to Christianity. There’s nothing less Christian than valuing **people** instead of souls and trying to make **this** world a better place instead of screwing it up for the next. There’s nothing less Christian than promoting human rights without trying to give the credit to God or convert everyone to Chrisitanity. And there’s nothing less Christian than tolerating people who disagree with you or have different tastes than you or who are female. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/234 "2007-06-07T23:53:53Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] No, it is in opposition to Christianity. There’s nothing less Christian than valuing **people** instead of souls and trying to make **this** world a better place instead of screwing it up for the next. There’s nothing less Christian than promoting human rights without trying to give the credit to God or convert everyone to Chrisitanity. And there’s nothing less Christian than tolerating people who disagree with you or have different tastes than you or who are female. [/QUOTE] I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/235 "2007-06-08T00:34:30Z")
[QUOTE=Shawn1767] Because of the threat of hell or the promise of heaven, I would much more believe the sincerity of a secularist when they do a good deed than a Christian. It seems to me that Christians (from the debate so far) seem to think that they have to act right because it’s the “right thing to do.” Not because it’s something they find intrinsic value in. Who would you believe is more sincere? Someone who donated $1,000.00 to someone without expecting reward or punishment or someone who did the same because some higher being told him it was the “right thing to do” and that there would be a reward for doing so? (or a punishment for not doing so.) It’s as if Christians would not be able to control themselves without the dictatorship of God. [/QUOTE] Good point, and Jesus made that point also. To do good is its own reward, none more needed. The big question I have is would Christians be able to continue if the Bible suddenly disappeared from planet earth. Most are Bible worshippers. What would they do if it was gone. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/236 "2007-06-08T01:34:29Z")
[QUOTE=lightwait] I will talk to you about anything. I will tell you what I understand concerning the OP. I will not debate. If you, or anyone else, becomes belligerent, I will go no further. Blessings [/QUOTE] What is your understanding of the difference between talking to people about things and debate? Seriously. It sounds like you’re saying you want to testify and share your vision of what truth is but you;re unwilling to listen to what others consider to be true, and to rationally discuss the differences. If that is true then perhaps you might share your thoughts on Luke 2: 45When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, **listening to them** and asking them questions. or Paul’s actions in Acts 17 1When they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. 2As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, I can appreciate not wanting to participate in a heated pointless argument, but a debate or discussion is a different thing. Speaking for myself, if you’re really not interested in what I have to say, or answering any questions, then I have little motivation to read your lengthy testimonials. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn1767](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shawn1767](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn1767)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/237 "2007-06-08T01:39:17Z")
**Posted by mswas** > [@](#): > > And you wouldn’t be able to stand upright if not for the dictatorship of gravity? Um yeah, there’s something called “gravity” that actually has evidence that it exists. There are people who have never heard of Christ who do good deeds and who don’t believe in God and yet, somehow they lead upstanding lives. See, get rid of gravity and everything flies apart. Get rid of God and nothing changes. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/238 "2007-06-08T01:43:33Z")
[QUOTE=Shawn1767] **Posted by mswas** Um yeah, there’s something called “gravity” that actually has evidence that it exists. There are people who have never heard of Christ who do good deeds and who don’t believe in God and yet, somehow they lead upstanding lives. See, get rid of gravity and everything flies apart. Get rid of God and nothing changes. [/QUOTE] Get rid of God and nothing changes eh? That’s ignorance at its finest I must say. Very little understanding of the social fabric in which we live. You are going under the assumption that God does not exist. As it is, I do not believe in the priority of Christianity over another religion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/239 "2007-06-08T02:04:46Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] You talk to people like that all the time, the only difference is you don’t say, “I love you.”, at the end. [/QUOTE] _Excuse me??_ Cite? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/240 "2007-06-08T02:05:57Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] _Excuse me??_ Cite? [/QUOTE] Cite of you talking down to people? Please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859.md?page=13)