# Where are we going? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859 "2007-06-05T16:30:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/321 "2007-06-12T13:50:37Z")
Why is it that people who have faith in a particular religion think that the rest of us who dont are doing it as a choice or to be awkward? Its not like choosing on which political party to vote for . Personally I’d love to think that when I die that I was going to heaven but I dont believe that I will just as I dont believe in leprachauns or the easter bunny. The only proof that religionists offer to back up their beliefs are the often self contradictory writings of various humans ,the meanings of which the believers even argue amongst themselves about . And the validity of the writings ? “He says god told him to write those messages.” “But what if hes lying ,or insane?” “Dont be stupid ,god wouldnt talk to a liar or a lunatic!” ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/322 "2007-06-12T15:07:19Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] For general work I like the NIV, but when questions arise I like to switch to either the NASB as it is noted as the most literal translation, and the AMP which will fill in hidden meanings, but the NIV is fine. I brought that up because I have found the CEV sometimes has phrasing that I find not to be entirely accurate. [/quote] Alright. I’ll have a look at the lines in question in those two in addition to the NIV, then (assuming i’m right in thinking that’s the New American Standard and Amplified Bibles?) > [@](#): > > I see what you mean about the ‘close to being cursed’ and agree with your interpertation. In Gen 3:17-18 it appears like thorns and thistles are produced from the cursed land. It does seem like that, but i’m not so certain. [QUOTE=Genesis 3:17-18 NIV] To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat of it,’ "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. [/QUOTE] It’s not actually made clear whether the land producing thorns and thistles is actually due to the land being cursed. It doesn’t actually come out and say that one is the results of another. So it’s a matter of interpretation. I would say this mostly a matter of how it’s written; before the thorns line, it points out that the land is cursed, and using a semicolon shows what this entails. Cursed is the land; this is what it means. I would have thought that were the thorns part of the curse, they would be included there, as opposed to the start of a new line. Cursed is the land; this is what it means, _and_ it shall produce thorns and thistles. Plus, by putting thorns and thistles in the same line as plants of the field (or fruits, depending on your version), it tends to imply that these might not actually be part of the curse, since plants and fruits were themselves already present and what Adam and Eve were living on at the time (if I understand correctly). It’s saying there will be thorns and thistles and they’ll have to live off the plants - but they were already living off the plants. Possible they already had thorns and thistles. The change being made as I understand it is just in the way they live; possibly the thorns hurt them whereas they didn’t before. But that’s a total guess. I could also make the point that thistles were actually quite useful at the time, for making clothes and other linen and for food. But the inclusion of thorns makes it pretty clear that it’s not being used as another ok thing as plants are, so I think we can dismiss that idea. > [@](#): > > It appears like these people being described are taking in the goodness of God and not doing anything good with it, and actually doing bad with it (producing thrones and thistles) - perhaps this refers to cursing others. The warning may be the final warning, the curse will be the lose of salvation: Ah, but he expands; [QUOTE=Matthew 25:41-43] Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ [/QUOTE] It seems the “curse” in question doesn’t refer to one that’s already on them, but perhaps one that God is right then placing upon them; since his reasoning for putting them into Hell doesn’t refer to any curse but a lack of good works. I see it as more God saying “You people, who did no good works in your life; you are now cursed because of it and will be sent to Hell”. Alternatively, it could be that the curse he talks about is present already but is not the curse from knowing but rejecting God, since he gives a different reason for their going to Hell. If it was, simply mentioning that they are cursed would be the reason, or even going into it further and saying “You are cursed; you knew me and rejected me”. > [@](#): > > It appears that these people in the verse above are already under a curse when final judgment is made. The warning in Hebrews I would take as one not to become these people in Matthew. I would agree, but since my interpretation of both those parts of Hebrews and Matthew seem to be different (although I think we may be agreeing somewhat on Hebrews), I wouldn’t agree that the curse in question in Matthew is that of knowing and rejecting God; together with my interpretation of Hebrews I think that perhaps knowing and rejecting is not an ultimate barrier to salvation (or repentance), just an extra hurdle to overcome that may be done so with continued good works and faith. > [@](#): > > I’m still undecided, but leaning towards perseverance till the end, due to it being stated a number of times in the NT, but still leave open the possibility that accepting Jesus will cause a change of heart that will produce perseverance till the end. \ Thank you for outlining your own personal beliefs. > [@](#): > > My view is without God the world ceases to exist, but getting past that, and allowing for some way of sustaining the earth w/o God, I really don’t expect civilization as we know it to last more then perhaps 3-4 generations at the most - and that is a outside chance - I think in the range of 1000’s of years to me is just out of the question. This does not necessarily mean that humanity will totally die off by then, but we are pretty close to caveman days again, with perhaps a few fuetal lords. It’s feudal, but I see your point. I would tend to disagree (of course 😉 ), but then it seems like both of our opinions on the matter are ultimately WAGs. > [@](#): > > No I don’t believe so. It appears like God will look into His book of Judgement to see the works of the person, and the Book of Life to see if that person is saved. If the person is saved only his good things will be used to judge him, and used to determine his reward, if the person is not in the Book of Life then sins will be used against him. That doesn’t seem entirely fair. I mean, under your beliefs, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin (I think). Were I to blaspheme so, no matter what good i’ve done in my life, it wouldn’t be used to judge me; that doesn’t seem very just. Likewise, a person could do many bad things and as long as his good things are enough to gain salvation (and his bad not enough to deny it), then he’ll only be judged by those good things. Justice, for me, would be to take everything into account. But of course that’s only my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/323 "2007-06-12T15:40:21Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] I see what you mean about the ‘close to being cursed’ and agree with your interpertation. In Gen 3:17-18 it appears like thorns and thistles are produced from the cursed land. It appears like these people being described are taking in the goodness of God and not doing anything good with it, and actually doing bad with it (producing thrones and thistles) - perhaps this refers to cursing others. The warning may be the final warning, the curse will be the lose of salvation: [/QUOTE] I’d like to weigh in here. I think you’re giving to much emphasis to the use of the word curse and drawing lines of separation that may not exist. In large part when studying the NT I’ve seen that what is being talked about is not God looking at our behavior and spiritual condition and then deciding whether we get a blessing/reward or a curse/punishment. Even though the language may be presented that way , what is actually being talked about are the unavoidable consequences of our choices and actions. Look at > [@](#): > > Heb 6: 1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so. This refers to the process of spiritual growth that you’ll see me speak of repeatedly and is referenced so often in the NT. As we grow spiritually and commune more clearly with the HS it should reflect in our behavior. The goal is to continue to grow not to stagnate or fall back into old behavior patterns that we need to repent from again. > [@](#): > > It appears that these people in the verse above are already under a curse when final judgment is made. The warning in Hebrews I would take as one not to become these people in Matthew. IMHO the curse is simply the consequences of our choices. Remember > [@](#): > > James 4:17 > Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins. In Matt 25 you have the parable of the talents in which the servants who went out and increased their talents were the ones the master praised. Actively seeking spiritual growth and not just resting on a certain dogma is crucial. I find the parable of sheep and goats in Matt 25 very interesting. Note that the people who did the good deeds didn’t know they were serving the Lord by helping others. Most Christians would know this basic principle. What is being stressed is the true state of their heart, which resulted in service to others, over just doctrine or dogma. Consider > [@](#): > > Matt 7:22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. Here are people who do believe in Jesus as Lord but never continued on with true spiritual growth and service to others. Instead it seems they took on a superficial worship of dogma thinking they really did prophesy and cast out demons in the name of the Lord, and yet they did not allow themselves to continue on to maturity, and be transformed by the HS in a way that was reflected by more loving behavior, so they were not actually close to the Lord. > [@](#): > > I’m still undecided, but leaning towards perseverance till the end, due to it being stated a number of times in the NT, but still leave open the possibility that accepting Jesus will cause a change of heart that will produce perseverance till the end. We don’t lose free will by accepting Jesus as Lord. A minister I knew once said,“you can save a man from drowning but he still has a life to lead after that” If he decides to go back into the same water he must face those consequences Look at > [@](#): > > Matt. 12: 30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. > > 33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." I think you can read this and the other passages and see that what is being stressed is not the labels or doctrine but the real condition of our hearts and spirits and the fruit that comes from that. Christians who give lip service to Jesus without the true spirit of love in their hearts are no closer to god than anyone else. In fact I think the passages indicate that those who act with true love and compassion toward their fellow man are following the spirit and our human labels of Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Atheist, agnostic, etc. don’t matter at all one way or the other. Look at verse 32. even if you don’t see Jesus as Lord, but still follow the spirit, then you are on the path that leads to all truth. If you deny or resist what the HS has led you to then spiritual growth cannot continue and you face the consequences of that denial. So , how does that apply to the people who thought they were casting out demons in Jesus name but still were told to depart from Christ? IMO, they revered the icon of Jesus, the image and name, through a certain doctrine _they_ thought was correct, but never truly surrendered to and followed the leading of the HS. In that sense they blasphemed against the spirit and put man’s teaching and doctrine above being led to a more loving and compassionate life. How does it apply to those who served others but didn’t know they were serving Christ? For whatever reasons, culture, background, personal experience, they didn’t see Jesus as Lord but they still followed the Holy Spirit into service of others. Their lives bore the fruits of the spirit and that’s what really matters. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/324 "2007-06-12T18:15:16Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Love is little if any help in disasters. Kicking out the Bushites and reforming FEMA would do more to help in disasters than all the love in the world. Really this . . . fetishization of love I see so much of is creepy, and to be blunt, stupid. It’s just an emotion, neither good nor bad. Love does not conquer all, nor does it always provide a happy ending, nor is it superior to most other emotions. [/QUOTE] Well, I think you need some Love before you can make that judgement. Your words here lead me to believe that you are as barren and desolate as a human being can be. Trust me , I know . Having been there in your most isolated of places I held everything in my hands to make it better . Steel , Blood , Hate ,Guts, but in the end only Love gave me the joy I needed to continue my walk. I can only hope you won’t have to touch the things I did to see what is right . But like every lesson of value in life you must taste it to learn it. So keep up with your hate and self pity and see where you end up. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/325 "2007-06-12T18:21:53Z")
[QUOTE=RT] (assuming i’m right in thinking that’s the New American Standard and Amplified Bibles?) [/QUOTE] Yes > [@](#): > > It’s not actually made clear whether the land producing thorns and thistles is actually due to the land being cursed. It doesn’t actually come out and say that one is the results of another. So it’s a matter of interpretation. Yes I see that, though there is no doubt that the ground is cursed at the time. A note about the semicolon, the Hebrew text has no such symbols it just uses plain text without breaks. Translators put in our symbols to help out, but they have to be taken carefully. But I can accept your point that the thorns and thistles may not the be curse itself. > [@](#): > > The change being made as I understand it is just in the way they live; possibly the thorns hurt them whereas they didn’t before. But that’s a total guess. The change as I understand it is now man will have to work for his food and needs. It’s not like it was in the garden that when Adam was hungry he reached over and grabbed a piece of fruit that just happened to be with in arms reach. Compare this to Jesus when He needed money and was able to pull a coin out of a fish. Needs are readably met by God for unfallen man, but we (fallen man) have to struggle for these things. > [@](#): > > I could also make the point that thistles were actually quite useful at the time, for making clothes and other linen and for food. But the inclusion of thorns makes it pretty clear that it’s not being used as another ok thing as plants are, so I think we can dismiss that idea. It does fit, since Adam and Eve needed no clothes before the fall, thistles would not be needed for clothes. After the fall it is clear that God will not be providing as before, and we will need to suffer in order to survive. Making clothes from thistles seems like something that fits right in (though God did start them out with clothes as they left). The curse in Matthew 25:41-43 and also the blessed in 34 to me seem to be preexisting. The judgment is at the end times, after Satan’s defeat, which would be after the second coming and the raising of the dead of all that who have ever lived. It seems pretty silly to curse someone who is going to be thrown into the lake of fire. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t seem entirely fair. I mean, under your beliefs, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin (I think). Were I to blaspheme so, no matter what good i’ve done in my life, it wouldn’t be used to judge me; that doesn’t seem very just. Us becoming children of God is unfair, why should we get the same as Jesus, after all He committed no sin? We are saved only due to the grace of God. The sin you mentioned, I believe is very difficult to commit, and requires full knowledge of what you are doing - I don’t believe it possible for someone to commit casually, or for someone who does not know God to commit at all. Having this sin available to us is fair, it gives us the option of declining salvation. > [@](#): > > Likewise, a person could do many bad things and as long as his good things are enough to gain salvation (and his bad not enough to deny it), then he’ll only be judged by those good things. Justice, for me, would be to take everything into account. But of course that’s only my opinion. My understanding of the condition of salvation is to surrender to God through Jesus. Jesus is now the rightful owner of you. At the time that the world will be condemned, the children of the world will be likewise condemned, people who truly accept Jesus is not people of the world. It doesn’t really matter when one accepts Jesus, or what sins they commit, all can be forgiven. It is very possible that horrible people did advance the Kingdom of God and lead more people to Christ before they themselves saw the light. > [@](#): > > I think that perhaps knowing and rejecting is not an ultimate barrier to salvation (or repentance), just an extra hurdle to overcome that may be done so with continued good works and faith. This is not just a person who believes in God, but one that has also experienced the power of God flow through them, the spiritual gifts like prophecy and healing, then rejecting God. Not so much as saying there is no God, but saying I know God exists and I reject Him and His gifts. One can apparently reject the Father and/or the Son and still come back. The actual reason that this is unforgivable I’m not sure, but I assume it’s because it’s God that is inside of us we have rejected, and as such we can never know God anymore, and can’t do His will. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/326 "2007-06-12T19:05:16Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] This refers to the process of spiritual growth that you’ll see me speak of repeatedly and is referenced so often in the NT. As we grow spiritually and commune more clearly with the HS it should reflect in our behavior. The goal is to continue to grow not to stagnate or fall back into old behavior patterns that we need to repent from again. [/QUOTE] In growth in Christ, and the Holy Spirit, I have found that you get a heightened awareness of the spiritual issues including the real effects of blessings and curses - it becomes part of our behavior and knowledge and we are to use that to further God’s kingdom. It seems like you are boiling it down to worldly issues on both the good and bad sides, instead of taking the issue of not being caught up in worldly issues but reject the world and do works in the Spirit. > [@](#): > > Note that the people who did the good deeds didn’t know they were serving the Lord by helping others This is a great point, thank you. As I pointed out earlier I do intend to do some homework to see if I can agree with your basic premise. > [@](#): > > Instead it seems they took on a superficial worship of dogma thinking they really did prophesy and cast out demons in the name of the Lord, and yet they did not allow themselves to continue on to maturity, and be transformed by the HS in a way that was reflected by more loving behavior, so they were not actually close to the Lord. This I also take along the lines to the warning to the Church in Ephesian (Rev 2) - ‘You have lost your first love’ (love of God). Usually noted as the most spiritually advanced church in the NT, it seems like they were misusing the spiritual gifts and not expanding God’s love. It is a good point and worthy of further consideration. > [@](#): > > We don’t lose free will by accepting Jesus as Lord. My take of it is once one surrenders to Christ, Christ can do what He want ever He wants with you, since He owns you. What Jesus does do it free that person with the consequences of freeing that person will result in that person being free to serve God. > [@](#): > > In fact I think the passages indicate that those who act with true love and compassion toward their fellow man are following the spirit and our human labels of Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Atheist, agnostic, etc. don’t matter at all one way or the other. Again I don’t currently accept this but this is the point of your belief I plan to look into, I just have not gone into it much. > [@](#): > > So , how does that apply to the people who thought they were casting out demons in Jesus name but still were told to depart from Christ? IMO, they revered the icon of Jesus, the image and name, through a certain doctrine they thought was correct, but never truly surrendered to and followed the leading of the HS. In that sense they blasphemed against the spirit and put man’s teaching and doctrine above being led to a more loving and compassionate life. Demons are fully sentient beings, capable of emotion (James 2:19), Will (Matt 12:44), Intellect (Mark 1:24), Self Awareness (Mark 5:9), Ability to speak (many passages). It does appear that demons can be ‘bluffed’ but if the demon accepts the bluff or not is up to the demon. [QUOTE=Acts 19 NIV] 13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.” 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding. [/QUOTE] There is no doubt that the name of Jesus is very powerful to them, but some demons might push the issue to see if the Jesus you speak of is truely the Christ or just a symbol that you use because it works. ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/327 "2007-06-12T19:05:37Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] Well, I think you need some Love before you can make that judgement. Your words here lead me to believe that you are as barren and desolate as a human being can be.. [/QUOTE] Well, thank goodness you’ve stopped judging people, oh mighty Christian Warrior. ---
**Author:** ![Hubert\_Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hubert\_Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hubert_Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/328 "2007-06-12T21:25:58Z")
**Omegaman** , you haven’t answered my question. I want to know how you classify Jesus’ refusal to kill Satan as an act of love, since as you’ve stated it allowed Satan to carry on causing evil for the rest of history until whenever God gets around to stopping him. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/329 "2007-06-12T21:57:58Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] My view is without God the world ceases to exist, but getting past that, and allowing for some way of sustaining the earth w/o God, I really don’t expect civilization as we know it to last more then perhaps 3-4 generations at the most - and that is a outside chance - I think in the range of 1000’s of years to me is just out of the question. This does not necessarily mean that humanity will totally die off by then, but we are pretty close to caveman days again, with perhaps a few fuetal lords. [/QUOTE] Or perhaps we’ll advance farther and faster without a God who’s focused on his own glorification, according to you, holding us back. Or more realistically, nothing at all would change, since whether God exists or not, he doesn’t do much of anything that affects the real world. You keep saying that the world will vanish or civilization collapse without God, but you fail to give any reason for it. How could God vanishing hurt civilization ? [QUOTE=kanicbird] Satan is not trying to physically kill people, but trying to eternally kill people. This is far worse, actually the only thing that matters, yet Satan deceives us to think God is the one that commits ‘evil’ by physically killing people. [/QUOTE] So he helps us escape by annihilation your evil God ? Sounds like a good deed to me. And I find it rather disgusting to claim that it isn’t evil for God to kill people. [QUOTE=Lust4Life] Why is it that people who have faith in a particular religion think that the rest of us who dont are doing it as a choice or to be awkward? [/QUOTE] Because theirs is the One True Faith revealed by God, the one whose rules should all be followed. If it isn’t **obvious** that this is true, then many of the justifications for their attitudes and God’s go out the window. It’s harder to justify tossing people into Hell for following the wrong religion when it’s not obvious that it’s the wrong religion. It’s harder to claim that your religious beliefs should be made law if you admit that there’s no particular reason to be any more sure of them than the opposing beliefs of the church down the street. [QUOTE=Omegaman] Well, I think you need some Love before you can make that judgement. Your words here lead me to believe that you are as barren and desolate as a human being can be. Trust me , I know . Having been there in your most isolated of places I held everything in my hands to make it better . Steel , Blood , Hate ,Guts, but in the end only Love gave me the joy I needed to continue my walk. I can only hope you won’t have to touch the things I did to see what is right . But like every lesson of value in life you must taste it to learn it. So keep up with your hate and self pity and see where you end up. [/QUOTE] Yes, because I don’t go all gooey at random uttering of the word “love”, I’m a desolate, empty shell of a man. :rolleyes: [QUOTE=kanicbird] Jesus is now the rightful owner of you. \< snip \> My take of it is once one surrenders to Christ, Christ can do what He want ever He wants with you, since He owns you. [/QUOTE] Another reason to oppose Jesus then, if he’s a slaveowner. Anyone who owns a person should be imprisoned for life or killed. Not followed. NO ONE is the rightful owner of anyone else. You go on and on about how we should all be good little grovelers before God, and about the terrible consequences if we aren’t, but you portray a God that is simply evil. A predatory, tyrannical egomaniac, obsessed with his own glorification. A God that should be opposed, assuming he’s real. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/330 "2007-06-12T21:59:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I want to know how you classify Jesus’ refusal to kill Satan as an act of love, since as you’ve stated it allowed Satan to carry on causing evil for the rest of history until whenever God gets around to stopping him. Satan is a eternal created being, and will exist for ever and ever, as such Satan can’t be killed. Here Jesus does what he needs to do to ‘nullify’ Satan: [QUOTE=John 16:11] and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Hubert\_Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hubert\_Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hubert_Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/331 "2007-06-12T22:11:43Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Satan is a eternal created being, and will exist for ever and ever, as such Satan can’t be killed. [/QUOTE] Fair enough, but my question was more directed toward **Omegaman’s** claim that Jesus could have killed Satan but chose not to. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/332 "2007-06-12T22:30:31Z")
[QUOTE=Hubert Cumberdale] Fair enough, but my question was more directed toward Omegaman’s claim that Jesus could have killed Satan but chose not to. [/QUOTE] Jesus has no righteous charge against Satan and would mean that Jesus would have committed a sin of murder. As such Jesus would not have been wrongly put to death, as such the Father would not have raised Jesus from the dead, as Jesus would have righteously deserved to die. By Jesus refraining from such action He would inherit the world and be able to free His children from death. ---
**Author:** ![Hubert\_Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hubert\_Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hubert_Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/333 "2007-06-12T23:05:46Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Jesus has no righteous charge against Satan and would mean that Jesus would have committed a sin of murder. As such Jesus would not have been wrongly put to death, as such the Father would not have raised Jesus from the dead, as Jesus would have righteously deserved to die. By Jesus refraining from such action He would inherit the world and be able to free His children from death. [/QUOTE] What do you mean Jesus has no righteous charge against Satan? Is the fact that he’s the freakin’ Prince of Darkness not enough? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/334 "2007-06-12T23:31:44Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Another reason to oppose Jesus then, if he’s a slaveowner. Anyone who owns a person should be imprisoned for life or killed. Not followed. NO ONE is the rightful owner of anyone else. [/QUOTE] Turn away before it’s too late . I am not Him only a man . Don’t destroy yourself friend. Now you have taken to bold face lying to show your hate. Turn away **Der Trihs** Turn Away ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/335 "2007-06-12T23:34:55Z")
[QUOTE=Hubert Cumberdale] **Omegaman** , you haven’t answered my question. I want to know how you classify Jesus’ refusal to kill Satan as an act of love, since as you’ve stated it allowed Satan to carry on causing evil for the rest of history until whenever God gets around to stopping him. [/QUOTE] And I won’t be answering anymore of your questions. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/336 "2007-06-12T23:41:07Z")
[QUOTE=Papermache Prince] Well, thank goodness you’ve stopped judging people, oh mighty Christian Warrior. [/QUOTE] Well thanks for the congrats ! Forty years it took to learn that lesson .Some people never learn . They just keep on with the hate and the evil bullshit untill there is nothing left of themselves or anyone around them. How long did it take you ? ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/337 "2007-06-12T23:55:45Z")
Really? You know what I loathe - people who claim to possess virtues they don’t show. Perhaps, Oh Mighty Christian Warrior, you can explain how labeling someone “as barren and desolate as a human being can be” is **not** judging them. As for me, when I judge someone, I’ll stand behind it - no weasel words like “lead me to believe.” ---
**Author:** ![Hubert\_Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hubert\_Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hubert_Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/338 "2007-06-13T00:07:34Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] And I won’t be answering anymore of your questions. [/QUOTE] Then you lose the debate, such as it was. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/339 "2007-06-13T00:26:08Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] Turn away before it’s too late . I am not Him only a man . Don’t destroy yourself friend. Now you have taken to bold face lying to show your hate. Turn away **Der Trihs** Turn Away [/QUOTE] If opposing the ownership of human beings makes hateful - then sign me up for hate. If it means I am going to be destroyed, I’d rather be destroyed than owned. I’d rather be on the side of freedom than on the side of anyone who owns people. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2007, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/340 "2007-06-13T00:29:02Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Voyager you leave out that God allowed those people to experience life, allowed a chance of eternal life, those people would most likely die at sometime in their lives. and the ultimate ‘good’ to be had is in this life, as opposed to the eternal life. [/QUOTE] Most of those killed were not Christians. Many killed were children who did not have a chance to decide for themselves. Many were adults, who might have heard of your religion, but never had a real opportunity to understand it. Perhaps one, perhaps many of these people might have converted if they had lived, and then, in your view, had eternal life. So it’s not at all clear that God realistically gave these people a chance at eternal life. If there is good to be had in this life, certainly some of the children would have experienced this good if they had lived. God took it from them, and replaced it with whatever surely mild form of hell you envision for them. So, no matter what, God did evil to these people, and our world is a bit worse for his actions. From another post - whyever would you say God created a Satan he can’t kill? Any evidence for this, besides you thinking he hasn’t? I suppose it is possible that God could create such a creature, but, knowing in advance of the Rebellion, why would he? He could certainly let Satan do evil if it was for the greater good in some way - surely making Satan eternal is equivalent to letting an evil but killable Satan run free. So this makes no sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859.md?page=18)