# Where are we going? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859 "2007-06-05T16:30:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/21 "2007-06-05T19:56:02Z")
[QUOTE=the PC apeman] Doesn’t it strike you that wanting more after death is akin to greed? [/QUOTE] Jesus talks about that pretty extensively: Those who love life shall lose it, but those who lose their life for me shall find it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/22 "2007-06-05T20:02:07Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Jesus talks about that pretty extensively: Those who love life shall lose it, but those who lose their life for me shall find it. [/QUOTE] OLDER BROTHER: Yes means no and no means yes. Do you want me to hit you? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/23 "2007-06-05T20:20:03Z")
[QUOTE=the PC apeman] Doesn’t it strike you that wanting more after death is akin to greed? [/QUOTE] Not sure if you are talking about Christian faith, but if you are: I wouldn’t say greed, it is faith in a promise made by God to His people. If God Himself, creator of everything, the one who knew you before you were born, and how many hairs are on your head, promises something, should you not expect it? What if God also gave you a deposit on that promise as well, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/24 "2007-06-05T20:32:28Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Not sure if you are talking about Christian faith, but if you are: I wouldn’t say greed, it is faith in a promise made by God to His people. If God Himself, creator of everything, the one who knew you before you were born, and how many hairs are on your head, promises something, should you not expect it? What if God also gave you a deposit on that promise as well, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? [/QUOTE] Expectation of a gift doesn’t preclude greed in its anticipation. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/25 "2007-06-05T20:35:12Z")
When we die, we die. There’s no evidence of anything else. As for what the secular community believes, that depends on who you ask and how you define secular. I’ve heard it used to mean everything from just atheists, to anybody who isn’t a priest. [QUOTE=the PC apeman] Doesn’t it strike you that wanting more after death is akin to greed? [/QUOTE] Only if you are a vampire, and live by taking the lives of others. Otherwise, no. And vampires are kind of scarce. [QUOTE=mswas] Jesus talks about that pretty extensively: Those who love life shall lose it, but those who lose their life for me shall find it. [/QUOTE] That’s pretty pointless. The people who actually **like** being alive don’t get any more, but the ones who just endure life for the sake of grovelling before a sky god get more of what they don’t care about. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/26 "2007-06-05T20:35:41Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] What if God also gave you a deposit on that promise as well, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? [/QUOTE] You’ve lost me. What is the “indwelling of the Holy Spirit” and how does it constitute a “deposit”? And does everybody have it, or only the saved/baptized/etc.? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/27 "2007-06-05T20:37:57Z")
[QUOTE=the PC apeman] Doesn’t it strike you that wanting more after death is akin to greed? [/QUOTE] What’s wrong with greed? Buddhists are supposed to let go of “grasping desires” to reach Enlightenment – but only because they really, really **want** Enlightenment! ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/28 "2007-06-05T20:42:24Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Only if you are a vampire, and live by taking the lives of others. Otherwise, no. And vampires are kind of scarce. [/QUOTE] It need not be a zero sum game for excessive or insatiable desire for more to be labeled greed, imho. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/29 "2007-06-05T20:48:28Z")
[QUOTE=the PC apeman] It need not be a zero sum game for excessive or insatiable desire for more to be labeled greed, imho. [/QUOTE] Well, imho, I think it does. And even if it doesn’t, I can’t see how that particular variety of “greed” would be a vice, anyway; if something hurts no one and helps you, how is that anything but good ? ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/30 "2007-06-05T20:53:01Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What’s wrong with greed? Buddhists are supposed to let go of “grasping desires” to reach Enlightenment – but only because they really, really **want** Enlightenment! [/QUOTE] If “greed is good” is your philosophy, at least when it comes to quantity of life, then feel free to proclaim it. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/31 "2007-06-05T20:55:14Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Well, imho, I think it does. And even if it doesn’t, I can’t see how that particular variety of “greed” would be a vice, anyway; if something hurts no one and helps you, how is that anything but good ? [/QUOTE] If we were talking about having more and more money without impoverishing anyone, would you feel the same way? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/32 "2007-06-05T21:09:31Z")
[QUOTE=the PC apeman] If we were talking about having more and more money without impoverishing anyone, would you feel the same way? [/QUOTE] That’s logically impossible; money by it’s nature can’t maintain it’s worth if it’s available in limitless amounts. Either you are taking the money from others, or making it, either of which will impoverish others. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/33 "2007-06-05T21:22:15Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] … by it’s nature can’t maintain it’s worth if it’s available in limitless amounts. [/QUOTE] A prescient thought. However, if you don’t care to exercise even a modest amount of hypothetical thought we should part here. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/34 "2007-06-05T21:28:05Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] That’s logically impossible; money by it’s nature can’t maintain it’s worth if it’s available in limitless amounts. Either you are taking the money from others, or making it, either of which will impoverish others. [/QUOTE] For “money,” substitute “wealth.” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/35 "2007-06-05T21:34:51Z")
[QUOTE=the PC apeman] However, if you don’t care to exercise even a modest amount of hypothetical thought we should part here. [/QUOTE] I did, and came to the conclusion that it was impossible. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] For “money,” substitute “wealth.” [/QUOTE] Those are quite different things. I would not consider wanting to increase one’s wealth to be greedy, so long as you didn’t impoverish others in the process. Greed is about selfishness, as opposed to self interest. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/36 "2007-06-05T21:55:41Z")
[QUOTE=lightwait] Where does the secular community have for all of man to go? [/QUOTE] Bowling. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/37 "2007-06-05T22:00:06Z")
[QUOTE=An Gadaí] I’m getting uploaded. [/QUOTE] It’s been awhile now, but I saw a guy on network news once who was a computer scientist and was a complete secularist. He believed that within about 30 years, the technology would exist allowing us to ‘exist’ after our bodies died through some vague technological mechanism I can’t quite remember at present. His focus then, was on living the healthiest possible life he could because he was already in his mid-40s, and wanted to make sure he was still alive when these technological changes came about. Personally I don’t consider it entirely far-fetched that humans could establish some sort of genuine immortality. I think it’s much farther off than thirty years, and I’m not entirely sure the form of said immortality would be so appealing that a sizable majority of the population wouldn’t choose to just die conventionally. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/38 "2007-06-05T22:00:51Z")
[QUOTE=the PC apeman] If “greed is good” is your philosophy, at least when it comes to quantity of life, then feel free to proclaim it. [/QUOTE] [Already covered!](http://www.subgenius.com/) “Don’t just EAT that hamburger, eat the HELL out of it!” ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/39 "2007-06-05T22:08:53Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What’s wrong with greed? Buddhists are supposed to let go of “grasping desires” to reach Enlightenment – but only because they really, really **want** Enlightenment! [/QUOTE] Reminds me of an old story. A student comes to a master. “Teach me detachment,” he asks. The master tells the student to sit and meditate. The student sits and meditates for 10 years. After ten years the student says, “Master, I have now achieved detachment!” The master strikes the student across the face. “Master, why did you do that?” “To detach you from your detachment.” ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/40 "2007-06-05T22:27:13Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] You’ve lost me. What is the “indwelling of the Holy Spirit” and how does it constitute a “deposit”? And does everybody have it, or only the saved/baptized/etc.? [/QUOTE] The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the gift of God living inside a person to help that person walk in faith. The Holy Spirit will give the Christian certain gifts as needed to advance God’s plan, such gifts include evangelism, discernment of spirits & prophecy, but the list is much longer. Only the saved has Him (Holy Spirit), and only the saved can perceive Him. There are 2 baptisms, the one we commonly think of is water, but there is another that of fire, which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. These are 2 separate events but could happen very close together. The Holy Spirit is part of the trinity, along with the Father and Son. The deposit comes from Ephesians: [QUOTE=Eph 1:13-14 NIV] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859.md?page=3)