# Where are we going? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859 "2007-06-05T16:30:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/61 "2007-06-06T00:48:58Z")
[QUOTE=D T] So God is an egomaniac jerk ? That sounds like somebody I wouldn’t deign to talk to, much less follow. [/quote] Not at all, God righteously deserved this praise. It is something that is a honor for us to be able to do. > [@](#): > > Both of you seem to be saying that the more self destructive, self hating, life hating, and spineless you are, the more God will reward you. When you say life hating, and I don’t know if it’s true, just a assumption on my part, I may see some of that in you. If this is the case, which again I don’t know if it’s true or not, perhaps you should consider giving the life you hate to God, let God take it from you and He will give you a new one. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/62 "2007-06-06T00:52:18Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] And an artist who requires an applause sign and a captive audience is nothing but a hack [/QUOTE] Yes, but this is not how the Christian God works. He shows you his picture and invites you to decide if you like it, and for that matter if you believe if He painted it. You are free to not applaud and for that matter you can boo. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn1767](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shawn1767](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn1767)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/63 "2007-06-06T01:08:16Z")
Originally posted by **kanicbird** > [@](#): > > Yes, but this is not how the Christian God works. He shows you his picture and invites you to decide if you like it, and for that matter if you believe if He painted it. You are free to not applaud and for that matter you can boo. No, I believe it’s more like this: Artist (holding a loaded gun to your head): “Do you like my works?” You (nervously): “Of course, your worshipfulness, Why would you think otherwise? Everything you do is great!” Artist: “Don’t you ever forget it, or you know what will happen!” Eternal hellfire is the cocked and loaded gun God holds on us to make sure we worship Him. Yeah, that makes me think that worshippers are sincere… I mean, the message is basically: Worship me or go to Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/64 "2007-06-06T01:15:17Z")
[QUOTE=Shawn1767] No, I believe it’s more like this: Artist (holding a loaded gun to your head): “Do you like my works?” You (nervously): “Of course, your worshipfulness, Why would you think otherwise? Everything you do is great!” Artist: “Don’t you ever forget it, or you know what will happen!” Eternal hellfire is the cocked and loaded gun God holds on us to make sure we worship Him. Yeah, that makes me think that worshippers are sincere… I mean, the message is basically: Worship me or go to Hell. [/QUOTE] Of course, there is the beneficial God: Artist(holding a wad of hundred dollar bills in your face): “Do you like my work?” You(greedily): “Of course, your worshipfulness, Why would you think otherwise? Everything you do is great!” An eternal Heaven is the wad of hundred dollar bills in our face to make sure we worship him. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/65 "2007-06-06T01:16:02Z")
[QUOTE=Shawn1767] As much as I would like to go “somewhere” when I die, I just don’t see a mechanism for it. [/QUOTE] If we can have [extra dimensions for gravity](http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/11/5/12/1), why not an extra dimension for souls? > [@](#): > > Gravity might be strong enough to hold our solar system together, but compared to the other three forces of nature it is pitifully weak. Cosmologists think this might be because the universe we can see around us is confined to a sheet-like “brane”, with gravity – unlike the other forces – free to operate in a higher-dimensional bulk. Now a physicist from the US has studied the age of a black hole to put a limit on the size of the extra dimensions at 80 µm, which might explain why we haven’t yet detected them in the laboratory (Phys. Rev. Lett. 98 181101). Not that I’m saying this is true and all, but _possible_; who knows? Mechanisms aren’t that hard to work up, the trouble comes in figuring out how to test them. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/66 "2007-06-06T01:16:46Z")
[QUOTE=the PC apeman] Doesn’t it strike you that wanting more after death is akin to greed? [/QUOTE] Not any more than wanting the beautiful, blue sky above me is akin to greed. The sky is a gift from God, as is the afterlife. Accepting gifts does not make one greedy. In fact, refusing gifts or accpeting them ungraciously is bad manners. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/67 "2007-06-06T01:18:56Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] If we can have [extra dimensions for gravity](http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/11/5/12/1), why not an extra dimension for souls?Not that I’m saying this is true and all, but _possible_; who knows? Mechanisms aren’t that hard to work up, the trouble comes in figuring out how to test them. [/QUOTE] You look for evidence of a soul, while I go find evidence of that extra dimension, o.k.? We’ll meet back here in, say, a week. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/68 "2007-06-06T01:21:21Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] Not any more than wanting the beautiful, blue sky above me is akin to greed. The sky is a gift from God, as is the afterlife. Accepting gifts does not make one greedy. In fact, refusing gifts or accpeting them ungraciously is bad manners. [/QUOTE] Eh, I would tend to disagree. You certainly could be greedy in accepting gifts. That said, I don’t think **PC’s** example of wanting life after death is inherently greedy, either. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/69 "2007-06-06T01:24:52Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] That’s wrong in so many ways. First, and most obviously, worrying about death doesn’t hasten it; it might make life less pleasant, but the odds are someone who worries about death will live quite a bit longer than someone who doesn’t. Second, what does loving life have to do with being “prideful” ? And why is enjoying life wasting it ? And finally, how is someone who decides to “lose themselves in the rapture of the divine” better than someone who doesn’t ? It sound a lot like claiming that someone who blisses out on drugs is superior to someone who doesn’t. [/QUOTE] Excessive worrying can lead to health problems, so no the odds are not that the person who worries about death will live longer. You can be aware of death and avoid things that will kill you without obsessing about it. Enjoying life isn’t necessarily wasting it. In my interpretation Jesus is talking about vanity in that selection. Losing oneself in the rapture of the divine brings something to the person who does it. It’s not about the price a person fetches on the open market so it’s not about comparative valuations of the worth of people. Jesus has a lot to say about that too. That sort of systematizing of the pecking order is a ‘worldly’ concern, something that the passage is also alluding to. Jesus leads people away from the ways of the ‘world’ in order to become closer to the divine. You can’t make a valuation on people without context, that valuation is meaningless. I could say, “Christians are better than atheists.”, but it’s a nonsense statement because this isn’t about the price of milk. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/70 "2007-06-06T01:51:09Z")
[QUOTE=lightwait] The Christian community has a place for all of man to go—evolve into, if you must. [/QUOTE] Aren’t there two places? And I am on an express train to the other one. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/71 "2007-06-06T01:51:20Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Not at all, God righteously deserved this praise. It is something that is a honor for us to be able to do. [/QUOTE] Why ? The God you describe is a disgusting one, who deserves hatred and contempt. An arrogant, self absorbed megalomaniac who terrorizes humanity into praising him. Saddam Hussein without Saddam’s good qualities. [QUOTE=mswas] Losing oneself in the rapture of the divine brings something to the person who does it. [/QUOTE] Yes; it makes one into a type of addict. It’s hardly something to be admired or emulated. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/72 "2007-06-06T02:33:03Z")
George Bush-Dick Cheney-Swaggert-Falwell-The list of Hypocrites thinking they are heading to heaven . They also claim to be believers and bible readers. I think any atheist on this board would be more more likely to be judged superior to them. I hold little respect for those who are the faces of religion. So far the proof of god and the existence of heaven have the same amount of proof. none. Nobody knows what happens. Some just can’t face that fundamental truth. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/73 "2007-06-06T03:13:31Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] You look for evidence of a soul, while I go find evidence of that extra dimension, o.k.? We’ll meet back here in, say, a week. [/QUOTE] I like the way you instinctively grab for the problem that glimmers with potentially lucrative patents. However, I also fear that your estimate of the timeframe required to make significant progress in either direction is abysmally short. How about 500 years? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/74 "2007-06-06T04:41:02Z")
Ok, I think it’s now time to plead for lightwait to come back and clarify what the OP was all about. Too confusing atm. (and wow: a member for 2.5 years and only 4 posts?) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/75 "2007-06-06T04:44:38Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] Not any more than wanting the beautiful, blue sky above me is akin to greed. The sky is a gift from God, as is the afterlife. Accepting gifts does not make one greedy. In fact, refusing gifts or accpeting them ungraciously is bad manners. [/QUOTE] Sorry. When I get a reward only after kissing someone’s ass, that’s not a gift. I don’t even take jobs like that, why believe in a God like that? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/76 "2007-06-06T11:49:40Z")
[QUOTE=Shawn1767] No, I believe it’s more like this: Artist (holding a loaded gun to your head): “Do you like my works?” You (nervously): “Of course, your worshipfulness, Why would you think otherwise? Everything you do is great!” Artist: “Don’t you ever forget it, or you know what will happen!” Eternal hellfire is the cocked and loaded gun God holds on us to make sure we worship Him. Yeah, that makes me think that worshippers are sincere… I mean, the message is basically: Worship me or go to Hell. [/QUOTE] Ok lets try this one again: Artist: Do you like my work you: Yes it’s magnificent Artist: How would you like to live there after you are finished living in your current picture, which btw I created also. you: Sounds nice, how can I do it Artist: Well you remember that person who told you about me and my picture, you know the one you nailed to a cross. you: um yes Artist: He is my Son and here with me, do as he says and believe in him you: is that it? Artist: yes, but just be aware once you enter this picture you will know all truths, you will feel joyously grateful each moment of each day forever and out of your free will sing my praises forever, and take additional joy in that. - addressing the other side - you: Well what if I don’t follow your Son? Artist: You are free to enjoy running your own life in your current picture, which as I pointed out before, I created and I rightfully own. But that picture will shortly be thrown into the lake of fire as a new picture will take it’s place. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/77 "2007-06-06T12:01:40Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] Not any more than wanting the beautiful, blue sky above me is akin to greed. The sky is a gift from God, as is the afterlife. Accepting gifts does not make one greedy. In fact, refusing gifts or accpeting them ungraciously is bad manners. [/QUOTE] It’s a question of what is your ultimate goal. Being appreciative of the blue sky above and of an afterlife if and when it comes is not at issue. Greed is insatiable desire for more and more of something. If one of these things is your ultimate goal then greed is good. And as I said before, proclaim it proudly. However, if you see them only as means to your ultimate goal, then such greed will likely distract you into a dead end. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/78 "2007-06-06T12:02:58Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Sorry. When I get a reward only after kissing someone’s ass, that’s not a gift. I don’t even take jobs like that, why believe in a God like that? [/QUOTE] **Voyager** you can’t brown nose God, your thankfulness has to be of the heart. You can’t fake it, God can and does read your thoughts. You do it because you love God. [QUOTE=Gonzomax] George Bush-Dick Cheney-Swaggert-Falwell-The list of Hypocrites thinking they are heading to heave [/QUOTE] Jesus did indicate that the higher one is in this world the harder it is to get saved, mainly because of the power and distractions of the world. He also indicated that the powerless ones will be the most rewarded, so if those people do get saved they may not have the same place in ‘heaven’ (really the New Earth) as the poor and oppressed. But think of it this way, if those people can be saved you and I have a much better chance. [QUOTE=David Simmons] Aren’t there two places? [/QUOTE] At least 2, commonly thought of as heaven/hell, there can be a case made for a option of non-existance making it 2 places + one ‘non-place’, as well as degrees of heaven and hell. [QUOTE=D T] Why ? The God you describe is a disgusting one, who deserves hatred and contempt. An arrogant, self absorbed megalomaniac who terrorizes humanity into praising him. Saddam Hussein without Saddam’s good qualities. [/QUOTE] Why, because I Love my God. Yes He does correct us when we need it, as any good Father should. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/79 "2007-06-06T12:27:59Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Why, because I Love my God. Yes He does correct us when we need it, as any good Father should. [/QUOTE] And by what standard is he a “good father” ? And what right does he have to tell us what to do ? And what is there to love ( or even **like** ) about your god ? He strikes me as quit unlovable. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/80 "2007-06-06T12:49:28Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] And by what standard is he a “good father” ? [/QUOTE] Righteousness > [@](#): > > And what right does he have to tell us what to do ? Most of the time He does not tell us what to do, for if He did we would have no choice and no free will. God’s Word is not just powerful but alive, and the Word is God. i.e. God spoke into the darkness and created the light. The right comes from God being God, it is right for Him to have such power over all creation. > [@](#): > > And what is there to love ( or even like ) about your god ? He strikes me as quit unlovable. A bit oversimplified here, but I realized that without God’s love for us we would be in a much worse shape and would self destruct. God lifts us out of that. We are in a better world because God loves us. We are not worthy of God’s help and love, but God gives His love and help to us anyway. And even accepts us as His adopted children. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859.md?page=5)