# Where are we going? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859 "2007-06-05T16:30:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/101 "2007-06-06T17:19:24Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] He won’t take me to the hospital unless I say I love him? That’s fucked up, man. [/QUOTE] I gotta admit…thats a good one. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/102 "2007-06-06T18:04:52Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] I think it’s in reference to vainglorious love. The prideful man who so loves his life he spends all of his energy avoiding death, thereby wasting his life. Those who lose themselves in the rapture of the divine will find that they are still there, even if they let go of their ego attachment to things. We cannot hold on, we are transient matter. You can spend your time worrying about death, but that will only hasten its onset. [/QUOTE] This is the truth as far as I can tell as well . By sacrificing your life when the time is right ( to save another , for justice in the eyes of the Lord, ) will you gain your life everlasting. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/103 "2007-06-06T18:09:42Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Both of you seem to be saying that the more self destructive, self hating, life hating, and spineless you are, the more God will reward you. [/QUOTE] You truly believe giving your life for another is spineless? Your idea of courage must be very a wonderful thing indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn1767](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shawn1767](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn1767)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/104 "2007-06-06T18:20:49Z")
Posted by kanicbird > [@](#): > > If you meet someone in the street after you fatally wounded yourself, your death is now assured and he gives you the offer of being resurrected in paradise, how is that fear based? If fear of Hell is motivating one to be/stay Christian then something is not right - it is love for God. Okay, how did I fatally wound myself? So, you’re saying that someone gives you a gift, you HAVE to like it or you will die and go to hell and that’s a “choice?” How did I fatally wound myself? This is the type of “God” you are presenting: “I am going to create a race of beings and if they don’t love me and worship me and like everything I do, then they can all go to hell (literally).” It’s one thing to hope to be loved and a totally different thing to actively punish those who don’t love you. It’s twisted. It’s insane. According to you, God is the rejected ex-husband who stalks his ex-wife and kills her at her workplace because she “didn’t love him,” and of course, he only did it because he “loved her so much.” ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/105 "2007-06-06T18:26:36Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Yes; it makes one into a type of addict. It’s hardly something to be admired or emulated. [/QUOTE] Man, you speak the truth there. Doing good for others is addictive and it is what God really wants from us. It is how I show Him my love for Him . Just as a child seeks to please its parents so it is with the Lord. You can’t be picky though . When he opens your eyes to something you must act without reservation . It is His will. You know, Thy will be done ? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/106 "2007-06-06T18:46:29Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Yes; it makes one into a type of addict. It’s hardly something to be admired or emulated. [/QUOTE] And you are addicted to food. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/107 "2007-06-06T19:16:24Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] He won’t take me to the hospital unless I say I love him? That’s fucked up, man. [/QUOTE] Who’s your eternal father? WHO’S YOUR ETERNAL FATHER? Ohhhh ohhh…ahhhhhhhhhhhh. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/108 "2007-06-06T19:34:11Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Not sure exactly what you mean. Are you asking how we humans would self destruct without God existing, but we’re fine to go about not believing in God (though He exists) and not self destruct? [/QUOTE] Yup. And as much as it’s tempting to say “though he doesn’t exist” in response, I’ll go with “though I don’t believe he exists”, in the hope that you’ll recognise the flaw in your statement. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/109 "2007-06-06T19:39:22Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] And you are addicted to food. What’s your point? [/QUOTE] There’s a difference between addiction and needing. I will die without food; I can’t wean myself off of it or live without it. I don’t get a choice. The same cannot be said for “losing oneself in the divine”. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/110 "2007-06-06T20:23:36Z")
[QUOTE=RT] Yup. And as much as it’s tempting to say “though he doesn’t exist” in response, I’ll go with “though I don’t believe he exists”, in the hope that you’ll recognise the flaw in your statement. [/QUOTE] To my post [QUOTE=kanicbird] Not sure exactly what you mean. Are you asking how we humans would self destruct without God existing, but we’re fine to go about not believing in God (though He exists) and not self destruct? [/QUOTE] In the first case, we humans wouldn’t even exist w/o God, but lets say God after creating us just left us alone, absolutely no help from God and the kingdom of God. There would be nothing to keep in check the kingdom of darkness from just taking over and this earth would become a hell. So Satan would rule. If we also exclude Satan, we would default to the ways of the flesh, we would be unguided, our moral compasses would work as if the magnetic field of the earth would be turned off. We would lock onto whatever small fields were available. But since God does exist, and is active, we can turn to Him directly for guidance. OTOH we also have the kingdom of darkness, who wants to deceive us and lead us away from God. Satan will set up false ‘gods’ to follow and offer false morality in his deception. It will seem to work for a while, but end in destruction. [QUOTE=Shawn1767] “I am going to create a race of beings and if they don’t love me and worship me and like everything I do, then they can all go to hell (literally).” [/QUOTE] Sort of, except that you leave out that it is totally right/correct/just for us to worship and love our God. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/111 "2007-06-06T20:44:59Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] To my post In the first case, we humans wouldn’t even exist w/o God, but lets say God after creating us just left us alone, absolutely no help from God and the kingdom of God. There would be nothing to keep in check the kingdom of darkness from just taking over and this earth would become a hell. So Satan would rule. If we also exclude Satan, we would default to the ways of the flesh, we would be unguided, our moral compasses would work as if the magnetic field of the earth would be turned off. We would lock onto whatever small fields were available. But since God does exist, and is active, we can turn to Him directly for guidance. OTOH we also have the kingdom of darkness, who wants to deceive us and lead us away from God. Satan will set up false ‘gods’ to follow and offer false morality in his deception. It will seem to work for a while, but end in destruction. Sort of, except that you leave out that it is totally right/correct/just for us to worship and love our God. [/QUOTE] You assume a lot ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/112 "2007-06-06T21:15:18Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] You assume a lot [/QUOTE] Perhaps, but I think most, if not all, of that can be supported. OTOH, and I know we have disagreements on what is needed for salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but it appears like you are ignoring a warning about getting a false spirit ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/113 "2007-06-06T21:31:06Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] There’s a difference between addiction and needing. I will die without food; I can’t wean myself off of it or live without it. I don’t get a choice. The same cannot be said for “losing oneself in the divine”. [/QUOTE] There is a point where we are probably not going to agree. Once God is revealed to you as fact, the choice to live without him is a choice for death. It is more fundamental than food which you can go without for long stretches of time. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/114 "2007-06-06T21:38:52Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] [QUOTE=Der Trihs] And by what standard is he a “good father” ? [/quote] Righteousness [/QUOTE] He’s . . . good because he’s righteous ? Two words that mean the same thing tells me nothing; **why** is he good, or righteous, or whatever ? [QUOTE=kanicbird] The right comes from God being God, it is right for Him to have such power over all creation. [/quote] And I say he doesn’t. This is another information free assertion. I say the God you describe shouldn’t have authority over a thing. [QUOTE=kanicbird] A bit oversimplified here, but I realized that without God’s love for us we would be in a much worse shape and would self destruct. God lifts us out of that. We are in a better world because God loves us. We are not worthy of God’s help and love, but God gives His love and help to us anyway. And even accepts us as His adopted children. [/QUOTE] Religion is a plague upon the world. “God”, real or not, has hurt humanity enormously, not helped it. If we do “self destruct”, it will likely be done in part in God’s name. And demanding that we grovel before him, worship him, and promote his “glory” is NOT love. And it is your God who is unworthy. A disgusting creature. I am far superior to your God in everthing but power - and I don’t require a high opinion of myself to believe that; most people are. [QUOTE=lightwait] We will not see the kingdom _in toto_, in its fruition, until all on the planet believe the scripture to be true, are born again, and act in faith—in other words, when the last trumpet sounds. We attain this place through edification—by treading on the high places of the world system. And that means, raising all nations (ethnos in Greek) or ethnic groups into a place of belief that is far above the heavens, where God the creator and His Son Christ Jesus dwells. [/quote] Which will never happen, short of mass murder on a genocidal scale accompanied by mind readers; you’ll never get everyone to agree on the same religion with anything short of that. [QUOTE=lightwait] I love history, however, history does not and cannot reveal when the end of the world as we know it will come—there is no time frame. We are saved by the faith of Christ Jesus and the prophets and the apostles and those following who believed in God and acted accordingly—so, we are saved by faith. [/quote] That’s what **you** think. I, on the other hand, think that Christianity is history’s greatest single evil, that it’s malice and irrationality has warped and blighted humanity possibly beyond repair. It corrupts everything it touches. [QUOTE=lightwait] Christ Jesus then, is the tree of life—His words are spirit and they are life. His words, the words of God, will live forever. [/quote] That is highly unlikely. Like religions tend to do, sooner or later it will fall out of favor, or become so changed that only scholars know that it originated as Christianity. If for no other reason than because it is so destructive, so irrational that if humanity doesn’t give it up we’ll smash ourselves back into a new Dark Age or worse. [QUOTE=lightwait] My authority is that I am saved by the faith of Christ Jesus and the faith of others who were born again and saw the Kingdom, and that was by the Grace of God. I have been given to see the kingdom coming… [/QUOTE] That gives you no authority at all, outside of a church that happens to agree with you. And I rather hope that there is no kingdom coming; I prefer democracy. [QUOTE=kanicbird] Before that picture is thrown into the lake of fire you would have long ago destroyed yourself anyway. You living in this current picture is a gift from God, a extra chance to accept his gift. So you can say that the ‘gun to your head’ was already shot - you deserve to be dead already, and also you will find that you were the one to pull the trigger. [/QUOTE] Someone once called Christianity a “cult of self-hate, guilt and death”. It fits. [QUOTE=Omegaman] You truly believe giving your life for another is spineless? Your idea of courage must be very a wonderful thing indeed. [/QUOTE] No, grovelling before God and trying to make him happy by self hatred and self abuse is spineless. [QUOTE=Omegaman] Man, you speak the truth there. Doing good for others is addictive and it is what God really wants from us. [/quote] No, God, as defined in this thread, wants you follow and glorify him. The addiction is to God, not to doing good; basing your behavior on obedience to God is incompatible with being good anyway. Following orders is because of God’s bribes and threats is amoral, not good. And “good” is not the way I would describe the behavior of Christianity. [QUOTE=Omegaman] It is His will. You know, Thy will be done ? [/QUOTE] Following the will of an evil god, an egomaniac who demands people worship him, is evil or stupid. [QUOTE=kanicbird] If we also exclude Satan, we would default to the ways of the flesh, we would be unguided, our moral compasses would work as if the magnetic field of the earth would be turned off. We would lock onto whatever small fields were available. [/QUOTE] Yes, we might follow beliefs that don’t involve self hatred and madness. How terrible. :rolleyes: [QUOTE=kanicbird] Sort of, except that you leave out that it is totally right/correct/just for us to worship and love our God. [/QUOTE] No, it’s not; worshiping anything is sick and self hating. Especially God. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/115 "2007-06-06T22:27:03Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] He’s . . . good because he’s righteous ? Two words that mean the same thing tells me nothing; why is he good, or righteous, or whatever ? [/QUOTE] God’s plan and design is based on righteousness, why He chose that over corruption, I don’t know, but glad He did. > [@](#): > > I say the God you describe shouldn’t have authority over a thing. You are in luck, God gives you the authority to say such a thing, which is not the lucky part, but your in luck because God is willing to forgive you for that. > [@](#): > > And demanding that we grovel before him, worship him, and promote his “glory” is NOT love. Then you miss the point, any groveling is done because it is appropriate, and a honor to be able to do, not because God demands it. > [@](#): > > Which will never happen, short of mass murder on a genocidal scale accompanied by mind readers; you’ll never get everyone to agree on the same religion with anything short of that. This is the plan, Satan and his forces will kill off a great number of people and cause environmental disasters on a worldwide scale, then Christ will come back to conquer the world, totally defeating the satanic forces. > [@](#): > > That’s what you think. I, on the other hand, think that Christianity is history’s greatest single evil, In worldly terms I think you can say this, it is the greatest threat to Satan’s hold on the world. If you are stuck in the world then you may see this as evil. > [@](#): > > No, God, as defined in this thread, wants you follow and glorify him. No God wants you to do what is right of your own free will. > [@](#): > > Following the will of an evil god, an egomaniac who demands people worship him, is evil or stupid. True - so don’t worship Satan. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/116 "2007-06-06T22:41:02Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Following the will of an evil god, an egomaniac who demands people worship him, is evil or stupid. . [/QUOTE] I don’t believe he demands anything of you . You have free will and can do as you please. Is it acceptable for you to refer to me as evil or stupid in this forum ? Seems a tad harsh . A mod if you please ? Finally , **Der Trihs** I would like to apologize to you as I used to be a bully when I was younger . Know I now you and I have never met but I feel sure that people have been very hateful to you in the past . People such as bullys . Please don’t mistake this for pity or anything like that . I mean this sincerely .It is all I can offer you . ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/117 "2007-06-06T22:52:02Z")
Well I can see frome the rules a personal insult is against the rules. I really don’t care if you’ll agree to one thing . Take what I just said to you to heart. I’m not trying to sell God to you. You have made up your mind. Just accept I meant what I said , O.K. ? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/118 "2007-06-06T22:59:31Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] God’s plan and design is based on righteousness, why He chose that over corruption, I don’t know, but glad He did. [/quote] :rolleyes: More of the same; you keep essentially claiming that he’s good because he’s good, without givng a reason why he qualifies. [QUOTE=kanicbird] You are in luck, God gives you the authority to say such a thing, which is not the lucky part, but your in luck because God is willing to forgive you for that. [/quote] Actually, it’s the Constitution; God hasn’t given me a thing. Not existing is harsh like that. [QUOTE=kanicbird] Then you miss the point, any groveling is done because it is appropriate, and a honor to be able to do, not because God demands it. [/quote] Grovelling is never an honor. [QUOTE=kanicbird] [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Which will never happen, short of mass murder on a genocidal scale accompanied by mind readers; you’ll never get everyone to agree on the same religion with anything short of that. [/quote] This is the plan, Satan and his forces will kill off a great number of people and cause environmental disasters on a worldwide scale, then Christ will come back to conquer the world, totally defeating the satanic forces. [/quote] :rolleyes: And again, this qualifies God as the Good Guy **how**? [QUOTE=kanicbird] In worldly terms I think you can say this, it is the greatest threat to Satan’s hold on the world. If you are stuck in the world then you may see this as evil. [/quote] Worldy terms are the only ones that have any reality to them. And if Satan opposes God, that’s a mark in his favor. From your rhetoric, I see no reason to consider him worse than God. [QUOTE=kanicbird] True - so don’t worship Satan. [/QUOTE] Or God, or anyone else who wants worship. [QUOTE=Omegaman] Is it acceptable for you to refer to me as evil or stupid in this forum ? Seems a tad harsh . A mod if you please ? [/QUOTE] Referring to a belief or behavior as evil or stupid is not a personal insult, and therefore not against the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/119 "2007-06-06T23:09:46Z")
Well I guess to the letter you got me there. As I worship that God it seemed you were refering to me , my mistake . I guess just forget the rest as well . My mistake again. Thanks for the lesson on how closely the rules must be followed . ---
**Author:** ![Shawn1767](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shawn1767](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn1767)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/120 "2007-06-06T23:25:57Z")
Regardless of where I might go (if the Christians are correct) I am totally screwed. If I go where I think I’d wind up, that would be hell. If by some “miracle” I wind up in heaven, then I’d be with all the “True Believers” and that would be hell. :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859.md?page=7)