# Where are we going? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859 "2007-06-05T16:30:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/161 "2007-06-07T17:02:45Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Biblically speaking the world can not exist w/o God, and would be a much better place w/o Satan. So you are really asking me something along the lines of if the space shuttle can go past the speed of light how would the astronauts act, basically a impossibility. If somehow God and Satan just withdrew and somehow things ran on autopilot my speculation is that we would stagnate and splinter into smaller groups, then continue to decline which would end in extinction, yes it could take many generations, even many ages. Death would also be final. This speculation is looking at what God does for us, then removing these things. [/quote] So, just to sum up; Biblically speaking, a world in which God and Satan withdrew entirely from acting on the world could potentially look exactly the same as a world in which they still interact, if only for a period of time? > [@](#): > > Yes we are already in such a state, caused by sin. Then I find myself confused. We are already in this state. Yet, you’ve said that without God, we will be in this state. It seems like we’re in it either way. Going back to the example of a world where God’s gone off somewhere; what would the difference be in terms of this destruction? > [@](#): > > Yes there is a very strong warning in Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV But shortly after that, in Hebrews 6:9-12 NIV; > [@](#): > > Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. That suggests to me, as a continuation of the same subject, that God is not unjust enough to relegate someone who falls away to certain death. Rather, it seems to suggest that despite the prior warnings all people should continue to have hope. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/162 "2007-06-07T17:12:11Z")
[QUOTE=Staggerlee] All very nice - but it very much sounds like you are saying that as long as one loves their neighbour, their belief in supernatural characters is unimportant. I am godless, but despite certain aesthetic reservations, consider myself generally a force for good, rather than ‘evil’. If I can be a humanist, a sceptic and a good man, where is the need for god? [/QUOTE] That’s not what I’m saying at all. But words can and never will be a replacement for deeds. Do you think Jesus is about lip service? I know you don’t believe he is the Son of God but do deny His sacrifice ? What I’m saying is for my biblical reference I focus on the new testament. The works of Paul , Acts, Corinthians etc. But if you don’t believe in God you won’t believe any of that either . And I’m not saying I don’t read and take of use what I can from the old testament but the fact of the matter is God sen’t Jesus to teach us ! And loving thy nieghbor is the cornerstone of His ministry while he was here. If you can love thy niegbor in deed not just in word than your almost all the way there. Just let Jesus in and all of the things that are promised will be yours. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/163 "2007-06-07T17:20:21Z")
[QUOTE=RT] But shortly after that, in Hebrews 6:9-12 NIV; [/QUOTE] It is fairly clear from 4-6 Paul is talking about people he is not addressing at that moment in this letter except as a warning not to fall away. Your cite of 9-12 reaffirms that, saying I know that does not apply to any of you. > [@](#): > > So, just to sum up; Biblically speaking, a world in which God and Satan withdrew entirely from acting on the world could potentially look exactly the same as a world in which they still interact, if only for a period of time? IMHO yes for a short time, but it will run backwards, ‘devolve’, again IMHO. > [@](#): > > Then I find myself confused. We are already in this state. Yet, you’ve said that without God, we will be in this state. It seems like we’re in it either way. Because God does exist we can be cleaned of our sin and reconcile thought the blood of the Lamb. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/164 "2007-06-07T18:00:34Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Because God does exist we can be cleaned of our sin and reconcile thought the blood of the Lamb. [/QUOTE] Amen to that . Without it there is only chaos. I wish I could get **Der Trihs** to believe it. I pray for him . And DT, don’t be mad or offended please . Indulge me. You probably think I’m crazy anyway so what could it hurt ? ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/165 "2007-06-07T18:01:43Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Yes, though these signs have no binding legal authority on Him 😉 [/QUOTE] Are good manners dead, then? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/166 "2007-06-07T18:34:09Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] I wish I could get Der Trihs to believe it. I pray for him . [/QUOTE] Same here! [QUOTE=Pazu] Are good manners dead, then? [/QUOTE] In the age of cell phones you ask this?!?! ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/167 "2007-06-07T18:39:26Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] …We all have our place in Gods plan mine happens to be a warrior . Warriors don’t get all the glory… [/QUOTE] Against whom are you fighting? How does this inspire love to your fellow humans? ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/168 "2007-06-07T18:40:28Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] In the age of cell phones you ask this?!?! [/QUOTE] You’re holding Jesus to the same standard as an obnoxious cell-phone user? ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/169 "2007-06-07T18:42:03Z")
While I’m not quite an atheist, I don’t believe in religeon. When I die, I’m gone, ended, moved without leaving a forwarding address. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/170 "2007-06-07T18:46:59Z")
[QUOTE=Pazu] Against whom are you fighting? How does this inspire love to your fellow humans? [/QUOTE] From Ephesians 6 NIV: > [@](#): > > 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/171 "2007-06-07T19:14:47Z")
Seems as if we have picked up a large flock of Christians lately. I think a little logic needs to be applied. No one needs to be saved. God hasn’t lost anyone, he knows right where we all are and what we are doing. Jesus didn’t die on the cross to appease God for our sins. God knows we will make mistakes, how else can learning take place. We already have God’s unconditional love, and we can never lose it. Most of the positions taken by Christians are not in the Bible, but must be read into it. The Bible is not God. God is love. I have experienced God in a near death experience and there is nothing to fear. I wrote a small article about doctrine. If you would like to read it: [http://aleroy.com/forums/index.php?topic=32.0](http://aleroy.com/forums/index.php?topic=32.0) I think this will be something to think about. You don’t have to convert people to God, He already has them. If you follow the teachings of Jesus you won’t condemn anyone. Remember, love your enemies, love your neighbor. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/172 "2007-06-07T19:18:28Z")
[QUOTE=Pazu] Against whom are you fighting? How does this inspire love to your fellow humans? [/QUOTE] Well Satan of course. Although he is not responsible for all evil as man can and does a fine job of it all by himself be sure he has filthy hand in many evil works. I have an ability to spot his foul deeds when I hear of them . Be sure that he is too chickenshit to try anything in front of me as both he and I know what will happen. This love I feel for my fellow humans is something I can’t quantify to you but be sure , as I have mentioned before , when the time comes for me to act in the name of Jesus and His Father I will do so without hesitation and without regard for myself. Be sure Satan is full of all of the worst things of humans and things so evil you and I can’t fathom them . You know he was once among Gods favored second only to us , His children ? Be sure being cast from Heaven from the grace of God’s Love is something I don’t want to even imagine. I caught Satan just last month and he was pissed off. He took it personnaly and tried to silence me but as he was an angel there are still angels that do the Fathers bidding and I had to ask for the intercession of Michael ( the Archangel ) . So as you don’t believe in God this might be hard for you to believe and as they are only words on this page I’m not too surprised . Sorry, I kind of rambled off there. Anyway Satans work is causing as much pain , hate and useless loss of life as he can . My work is to be the burr in his saddle at every opportunity . The giving of ones life for another is the greatest sacrifice one can make. I don’t quote scripture but I believe Jesus expressed it as “nothing greater than giving ones life for ones friends” . I take that to mean any of Gods children . I can not judge if someone is worthy of having thier life saved . That is the providence of our Lord. Does this or does this not sound like love to you ? ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/173 "2007-06-07T19:25:32Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I think this will be something to think about. You don’t have to convert people to God, He already has them. If you follow the teachings of Jesus you won’t condemn anyone. Remember, love your enemies, love your neighbor. [/QUOTE] I agree with everything you’ve stated here except my enemies. I have only one and that is Satan . I’ll bet you know from what I’ve written here what I have for him right ? I only hope to someday get the opportunity to face him and make him squeel like a little piggy . I’m praying it is what is written in God’s book. Your words are very wise friend. Thanks for sharing them. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/174 "2007-06-07T19:36:27Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] I agree with everything you’ve stated here except my enemies. I have only one and that is Satan . I’ll bet you know from what I’ve written here what I have for him right ? I only hope to someday get the opportunity to face him and make him squeel like a little piggy . I’m praying it is what is written in God’s book. Your words are very wise friend. Thanks for sharing them. [/QUOTE] Jesus made no distinction, He said love your enemies, that would include this Satan you talk about. Now God doesn’t have a book, the Bible was written by men, not God. And I wouldn’t count on making this Satan squeel like a little piggy either. After all, you will have to find him first, which is not an easy job since he lives only in the thoughts of frightened men. Give up your fear and join God in a compaign of love. Show who you are, don’t just talk about it. I can guarantee you Satan will not bother you while you are walking the path of love. Love, heal, forgive, judge not, give of yourself and you will see the Kingdom of God. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/175 "2007-06-07T19:50:26Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Now God doesn’t have a book, [/QUOTE] Actually God has several books: Book of Life (Rev 13:8, 17:8, 20:12, 21:27) - contains the name of all the saints and faithful and is the usually one though of, but He also has the book of human destinies, joys and sorrows (Ps 56:8, 139:16) Book of the living Is 4:3, Jub 19:9, En 47.3 - people currently alive Books of judgement (Rev 20:12) based on Is 65:6, Jer 22:30 and Mal 3:16 - book of mans transgressions ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/176 "2007-06-07T19:58:13Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Jesus made no distinction, He said love your enemies, that would include this Satan you talk about. Now God doesn’t have a book, the Bible was written by men, not God. And I wouldn’t count on making this Satan squeel like a little piggy either. After all, you will have to find him first, which is not an easy job since he lives only in the thoughts of frightened men. Give up your fear and join God in a compaign of love. Show who you are, don’t just talk about it. I can guarantee you Satan will not bother you while you are walking the path of love. Love, heal, forgive, judge not, give of yourself and you will see the Kingdom of God. [/QUOTE] You’re getting a little off base if you think me afraid.That would be you judging me. I don’t know fear . God took it from just as he gave me the strength and courage to Love freely.God does not want you to love Satan he wants you to fight him. You can not fight what you love. And I’m pretty sure you’re calling me a liar as you say I have done no good deeds in the name of God.Another judgement.I can tell you don’t know of Satans work . Thats how he does them so freely fooling people like you. I am insulted that you attempt to tell me what to do (don’t judge) and you have done it twice in what you just wrote . Thier are false gods too and just because you capitilize the word I think maybe you worship one of them.Thier can be no God without Satan . I also have to add you have exposed yourself as a charlatan by your own words. I’ll bet Satan _does_ love you if that’s any consolation to you. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/177 "2007-06-07T20:00:05Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Actually God has several books: Book of Life (Rev 13:8, 17:8, 20:12, 21:27) - contains the name of all the saints and faithful and is the usually one though of, but He also has the book of human destinies, joys and sorrows (Ps 56:8, 139:16) Book of the living Is 4:3, Jub 19:9, En 47.3 - people currently alive Books of judgement (Rev 20:12) based on Is 65:6, Jer 22:30 and Mal 3:16 - book of mans transgressions [/QUOTE] Man I love your ability to quote scripture. It was the Book of Life I was referring too. Without you here these charlatans would eat me alive. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/178 "2007-06-07T20:06:30Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] Thanks. [/QUOTE] Don’t thank me, I’m just a servant like yourself, all thanks, all glory to the Lord and King pls. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/179 "2007-06-07T21:12:07Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] You are absolutely correct. Pity has no place in human relations. Empathy is a much better approach to helping others. But the best is love. [/QUOTE] Why ? What’s so great about love ? What makes love better than, say, friendship ? People have done plenty of evil or stupid things for love; I don’t think it deserves near the adulation it gets. [QUOTE=lekatt] It is possible to know God on a personal level, I am sure billions of people over the years have done so. But that does not make them special in any way. God doesn’t love them any more than He loves those who don’t have a personal experience of Him. Neither are they more worthy than others. The only benefit in having a personal experience with God is feeling His love, and thereby understanding what is important in life. There is no fear after that ever. [/QUOTE] That is obviously wrong. Not only is there no evidence beyond your assertion that it is so, but if that was true we’d se billions of people doing things like walk off cliffs or into fires. Fear is necessary for survival. [QUOTE=kanicbird] Biblically speaking the world can not exist w/o God, and would be a much better place w/o Satan. So you are really asking me something along the lines of if the space shuttle can go past the speed of light how would the astronauts act, basically a impossibility. If somehow God and Satan just withdrew and somehow things ran on autopilot my speculation is that we would stagnate and splinter into smaller groups, then continue to decline which would end in extinction, yes it could take many generations, even many ages. Death would also be final. This speculation is looking at what God does for us, then removing these things. [/quote] There is of course no evidence that God or Satan do anything for or to us. And no, the Bible isn’t evidence; it’s a collection of millenia old mythology, and no more true than any other such collection. You can say that the universe will fall apart without God; I can just as plausibly say “No, Odin will take up the slack, so no worrys.” Or that the unverse will run just fine without God, because there isn’t one. On the other hand, we have hard evidence of the speed of light limitation, so your analogy doesn’t hold at all. [QUOTE=Omegaman] That’s not what I’m saying at all. But words can and never will be a replacement for deeds. Do you think Jesus is about lip service? I know you don’t believe he is the Son of God but do deny His sacrifice ? [/quote] Plenty of people believe that faith alone is enough; it’s not that unusual. As for his “sacrifice”, it was meaningless. After all, he knew that he’d come back, assuming the story happened to begin with, and it meant nothing for anyone besides himself, if that. [QUOTE=Omegaman] And loving thy nieghbor is the cornerstone of His ministry while he was here. [/QUOTE] “I come not to bring peace, but a sword.” It all depends on what parts of the Bible you read; all this stuff about how nice and peaceful and loving Jesus was is an example of selective reading. You can just as easily see his teachings as a call for warfare and conversion by the sword, for torture and mass murder. Plenty of people have. [QUOTE=Omegaman] Well Satan of course. Although he is not responsible for all evil as man can and does a fine job of it all by himself be sure he has filthy hand in many evil works. I have an ability to spot his foul deeds when I hear of them . Be sure that he is too chickenshit to try anything in front of me as both he and I know what will happen. [/quote] He’d set you on fire and eat you, assuming he existed ? Are you going to claim next that Godzilla isn’t going to tear up your home town because he’s scared of you ? [QUOTE=Omegaman] I caught Satan just last month and he was pissed off. He took it personnaly and tried to silence me but as he was an angel there are still angels that do the Fathers bidding and I had to ask for the intercession of Michael ( the Archangel ) . [/QUOTE] Yeah, and I was nearly killed by the Lizard, but fortunately Spider Man showed up and saved me ! Honestly, either you are lying or you need medical help. ---
**Author:** ![lightwait](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@lightwait](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lightwait)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859/180 "2007-06-07T21:14:36Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I find it difficult to believe you have read them. [/QUOTE] I really have—I do not mind what others think—I, though, will not argue or debate. Blessings [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-are-we-going/406859.md?page=10)