# where could a dissatisfied american emmigrate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 26, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165 "2003-03-26T00:48:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/41 "2003-03-27T06:18:08Z")
Well, Canada looks favorably on people who own Canadian stuff living here. If you were to take a portion of your $$ and invest in a small Canadian owned/operated business, you could probably get the owner to sponser your bid which puts points in your favour. Basically, if you’re trained, in good health, have some $$ to back you up, a Canadian relative or 2 and a sponsor, you’re a good candidate for Canadian immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/42 "2003-03-27T08:16:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chappachula \* > \*\*If you are afraid of losing your rights to a war-mongering Big Brother–remember that almost NO other country anywhere has a formal,written Bill of Rights or First Ammendment like the US. \*\* That’s a little misleading. Basic rights and freedoms are alive and well in countries without a written bill or rights (or even a written consitution, for that matter). There’s nothing magical about the rights the United States expressly guarantees to its citizens; similar freedoms accrue, inter alia, under the common law in Commonwealth nations. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/43 "2003-03-27T08:18:44Z")
Grr. Bill _of_ rights. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/44 "2003-03-27T13:57:52Z")
I went to Panama. ---
**Author:** ![TaxGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@TaxGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaxGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/45 "2003-03-27T15:47:50Z")
On the tax issue: If you call up the US and tell them that you renounce your U.S. citizenship, the US will presume that you did so to avoid US taxes, so they will still tax you like a US citizen for ten years. Remember, US citizens are taxed on every dollar of income no matter where they made it; however, up to $75,000 of earned income (i.e., not interest or dividends or capital gains, but money you make from working) you make while in a foreign country is excludable from your gross income, and you can also get a credit for foreign taxes paid up to the amount of taxes you would have paid in the US on that same amount of income. One way to get out of the presumption that you renounced your citizenship to avoid US taxes is to marry a citizen of the country that you become a citizen of. There are other ways to get out of the presumption, but for some reason I seem to remember this one (probably because I sleep next to a born and bred Belizian every night). ---
**Author:** ![Space\_Vampire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Space\_Vampire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Space_Vampire)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/46 "2003-03-27T15:57:09Z")
Wait, wait, wait… So if I make less than $75,000 in a year overseas, I pay nothing? Or do I misunderstand? I’ve been wondering how I’m going to handle this since one government wants me to pay taxes and another doesn’t allow me to legally work. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/47 "2003-03-27T16:13:43Z")
While I don’t know the details of New Zealand’s interest in encouraging immigration, if I wanted to move to another country I’d choose New Zealand first. My two week vacation there a couple years ago was terrific. I fell in love with the country and the Kiwis I met there. For another suggestion, how about St. Thomas or St. Croix in the US Virgin Islands? While technically you wouldn’t be moving to another country, life in the Caribbean is quite disconnected and different from the mainland US. ---
**Author:** ![Burns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9a140/32.png) [@Burns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burns)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/48 "2003-03-27T20:57:59Z")
Hee hee hee! I love it when disgruntled youngsters talk about mean people in America and then move away just to find mean people in Korea, or Africa, or Mexico. Haven’t you ever seen Kate Hepburn’s “We are the origins of war” diatribe in “The Lion in Winter”? I’m only 24 myself, yet I figured out the inhumanity to man thing in my girlhood. Yeesh. But really–fly, fly, Love. I, too, hear South Africa’s lovely place, somewhat insulated from the rest of the AIDS-ravaged land, so hopefully you’ll lead a carefree life, buffered from the dying masses. Careful when you have children, through. The natives go for prepubescents, on the idea that it protects them from the scourge. Tah! Don’t forget to renounce your citizenship! ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/49 "2003-03-27T21:42:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Space Vampire \* > \*\*Wait, wait, wait… So if I make less than $75,000 in a year overseas, I pay nothing? Or do I misunderstand? I’ve been wondering how I’m going to handle this since one government wants me to pay taxes and another doesn’t allow me to legally work. \*\* Well, you pay no US taxes, but you’ll still pay taxes in the country you make them in. Probably at a higher tax rate too, depending on where you head to. At lower incomes in Canada you’ll pay 17% federal and 8.5% provincial, but that goes up as your income increases. However, if you choose the Caymen islands, my understanding is that they don’t tax at all. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2003, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/50 "2003-03-27T21:52:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Space Vampire \* > \*\*Wait, wait, wait… So if I make less than $75,000 in a year overseas, I pay nothing? Or do I misunderstand? I’ve been wondering how I’m going to handle this since one government wants me to pay taxes and another doesn’t allow me to legally work. \*\* If you make less than $75,000 in a year overseas, you pay nothing in U.S. income tax. But it’s very likely that you’ll be taxed by the country you reside in. For instance, my father, an American citizen, worked in Canada for years. He was always exempt from U.S. income taxes, but he had to pay Canadian income tax. Ed ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/51 "2003-03-28T00:24:55Z")
A former colleague of mine, working in Singapore, turned down a payrise that would have brought her salary above 75 thousand, because of the hassle of having to start filing tax returns. She was happier to stick at her lower salary rate, just below the threshold. I don’t know exactly how the system works, but it must be scammed regularly by a lot of US expats. Eg here in the UAE, basic salaries are often quite low, with loads of much higher benefits on top, as part of the “package”. Eg housing, furniture, car, health, school education for children, overseas flights, etc. These could easily double the base salary. I wonder if the US expat has to declare the full value of the package, or just the base salary. Or even if they are supposed to declare the full package, it must be fairly easy to brush it under the table. ---
**Author:** ![mancunian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mancunian/32/12244_2.png) [@mancunian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mancunian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/52 "2003-03-28T00:48:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bibliophage \* > \*\*Your incoherent diatribe is not appropriate for this forum. If you mean to insult another poster (and I suppose you do, though it’s hard to tell), you will do so in the BBQ Pit. > > bibliophage > moderator GQ \*\* It’s not incoherent. It’s not meant as an insult, though I guess thinking Ireland is in the UK is a little insulting to the Irish, and also calling the UK the US’s mini me is also insulting to me. Sorry about the language, just sheer frustration that ppl do not check facts. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/53 "2003-03-28T00:57:38Z")
Remember also that most nice nations also have HIGHER taxes than the USA. Exception being some “mini-states”. Canada is higher than us, etc. ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/54 "2003-03-28T23:02:36Z")
Have you travelled much? Seriously. If you are serious about this, you might want to take some LONG vacations with the family and see how you feel about the day-to-day differences. Also, you might want to talk to Dick Gregory about the benefits of leaving the USA. [http://www.dickgregory.com/](http://www.dickgregory.com/) ---
**Author:** ![capnfutile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e0b2c6/32.png) [@capnfutile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capnfutile)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/55 "2003-03-29T07:38:51Z")
Is moving from one commonwealth country to another easier than from a non-commonwealth country? I’m American born, recently moved to NZ with my Kiwi wife - residency and citizenship pending, but would like to someday move to Canada (ideally Montreal, as it’s two hours due north of where I was born). I plan on learning French, but I have no degree or Canadian ancestry. Just curious at this point - it’s years away. I’m pretty happy here in NZ right now. And, as another poster correctly said, NZ is not sucking up to the “Alliance” right now, though is still allowing US military aircraft to do some staging work here. capn ---
**Author:** ![Space\_Vampire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Space\_Vampire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Space_Vampire)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/56 "2003-03-29T08:11:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by alice\_in\_wonderland \* > \*\*Well, you pay no US taxes, but you’ll still pay taxes in the country you make them in. Probably at a higher tax rate too, depending on where you head to. > > \*\* Nope. Since Hong Kong doesn’t allow me to legally work with my current status, it’s all under the table. And if I do ever swing a work visa, as far as I know taxes are lower here. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/57 "2003-03-29T08:38:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Space Vampire \* > \*\*Nope. Since Hong Kong doesn’t allow me to legally work with my current status, it’s all under the table. And if I do ever swing a work visa, as far as I know taxes are lower here. \*\* Just be careful if you are going that route. At best, the authorities will toss you out. At worst, jail. ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/58 "2003-03-29T10:17:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Burns \* > \*\*Hee hee hee! I love it when disgruntled youngsters talk about mean people in America and then move away just to find mean people in Korea, or Africa, or Mexico. Haven’t you ever seen Kate Hepburn’s “We are the origins of war” diatribe in “The Lion in Winter”? I’m only 24 myself, yet I figured out the inhumanity to man thing in my girlhood. Yeesh. > > But really–fly, fly, Love. I, too, hear South Africa’s lovely place, somewhat insulated from the rest of the AIDS-ravaged land, so hopefully you’ll lead a carefree life, buffered from the dying masses. Careful when you have children, through. The natives go for prepubescents, on the idea that it protects them from the scourge. Tah! Don’t forget to renounce your citizenship! \*\* I disagree that one can’t escape some problems by leaving the US, but that’s for a GD thread. Anyway, I think people should be admired for wanting to go to another country and learn more about the outside world. After all, intercultural experience can only help. It’s a shame that more people aren’t willing to uproot and go somewhere else. It sure would be nice if upon hitting the age of 20, say, people by law had to move to some other nation of their choice. I don’t understand how people can bear living in the same place their whole life. Your portrayal of South Africa is incredibly inaccurate. Maybe someone who currently resides there will welcome you in the Pit. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/59 "2003-03-29T10:43:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RobbieFal \* > \*\*Why not Andorra, Liechtenstein or Monaco?? \*\* Because it’s well nigh impossible to obtain Monegasque or Liechtenstein citizenship. (Though if you’re interested in just working without renouncing your US citizenship, Liechtenstein might be OK – foreigners make up over 1/3 the population.) Not sure about Andorra. ---
**Author:** ![Arturas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@Arturas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arturas)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165/60 "2003-03-29T11:25:56Z")
For any others than Toaad who wish to renounce citizenship, one suggestion if you marry a local. First have children, obtain their US citizenship (fill out all the paperwork) so they can travel freely is they so choose (it is their right to choose as well) and then renounce your citizenship. Your children have the right to live in the US, so I would presume it would be easier to regain admittance, if you need it in the future. Besides, it really, really bugs the consulate. I fully agree about vacationing in the destination for a long while. You have to live with the people, not the beautiful scenery and they take a while to get to know. One advantage to a non-English country is that it is easier to avoid all the negative stories plastered all over the media. Therefore, life is much more peaceful for me here in Lithuania. Another benefit was that in the States I grew up with the propaganda in my ears all the time about how great it was, how just, how fair, how free and it was very, very disappointing when I found out the truth. Here no one is making that claim for the most part, so I don’t feel let down when the system functions as predicted. Crime, incidentally, has a lot to do with how you live. If you flash it, beware. Second, you have to take precautions, like steel doors simply because a thief is going to say, ‘Ah, American. must be a stack of 10000 dollars cash on each table’ (Thieves are often desperate, not smart.) But I have had no trouble with crime since I have been here (6 years) Another field one can work in is editing documents while slowly learning the local language so one can work as a translator. Who says you have to stay in your original field? As to taxes. forget them. You are not going to see the money anyway. Calculate your income as cash in hand (after taxes) and not before. Look at it this way. The natives survive on what you will be getting and are happy (hopefully), so when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Much easier to make friends if you aren’t spilling money out of all the seams. Nice to see so many expats out there. I don’t get out too much here. Some interesting replies as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-could-a-dissatisfied-american-emmigrate/164165.md?page=4)