# Where did all these violent Christians come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 27, 2001, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119 "2001-09-27T15:43:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/41 "2001-09-27T19:15:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\*Gee, DROP, sounds like your opinion of Paul is based on one single Bible verse, you snake-handler, you! The truth is, he’s just as militant and as mysogynistic as you probably suspect – an impression you ought to receive from reading _all_ his writings, not just one that happens to turn you a bunnyish shade of pink. \*\* Actually, my opinion of Paul IS one of militance and misogyny! But he was more complex than that, as my quote shows. Going to this “pinko” (by the standards of Henry Hyde’s home district) church has shown me that. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/42 "2001-09-27T19:38:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*1. Please. I don’t imagine any poster getting away with a topic titled “Where did ALL these violent Muslims come from”…said poster would have been lambasted for his/her generalizations and ignorance. > > 1. you’re telling the families of the firefighters and police officers that they should happily “accept their deaths”? > > 2. I notice you mention “vengeance” as something now accepted by Christians. Are you choosing to purposely ignore the Just War tradition that I cited which specifically rules out revenge? \*\* 1. I get it now! I realize what part of the problem is, my use of the word “all” in the title! You think I mean that ALL CHRISTIANS are violent! Nonononono! It’s a bit of semantic confusion! No, I’m talking about all of the VIOLENT Christians only. See, that’s how English works: you add a modifier to make a more specific subset of the set of all Christians. Yeesh! I wasn’t generalizing. It was you who misinterpreted what I said. 2. Well, that’s how I was taught. Death is cause for celebration as the dead person is reborn to eternal life. 3. No, but some Christians I’ve heard lately seem to. ---
**Author:** ![magdalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@magdalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magdalene)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/43 "2001-09-27T19:38:54Z")
JODI, once again, I wish this were not in the Pit. Earlier in this thread I posted this: > [@](#): > > I see Christianity and the early Church as having a Change World mentality. And I see commandments like “turn the other cheek” and “do not kill” as very idealistic statements meant to change the world by the example of Christians. A sort of “kill us if you want to, but you won’t make us behave like you” message designed to change the hearts of people and stop the killing in the world. > > JODI, do you think this is in any way accurate? The thinkers that andros cited, Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, and others seem to say “war is regrettable but necessary, and killing in a just war is not wrong or sinful.” I can accept that as _Church doctrine_, as far as that goes. If someone started a “Where did all these violent Muslims come from” thread, I would not jump down anyone’s throat as the P.C. police (I only use that if you use the word towel-head). I would try to look at writings from the Koran, writings of Muslim thinkers, and political history of the Muslim world and try to find out how they justify violence to themselves. Much like we are doing in this thread about Christianity. I apologize if my initial post in this thread came across as derisive. My use of the word “loophole” was also not meant to be derisive. Church fathers and theologians took the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” and said “of course he didn’t mean it’s wrong to kill ALL the time, that’s ridiculous. Here’s when it’s okay to kill: - when it’s a just war, if ordered by one’s superior, and to secure one’s own safety.” Which makes perfect sense from a common sense or survival standpoint, but seems to go directly against “love your enemies, bless those who curse you, turn the other cheek, do not kill.” It’s the transformation of a very idealistic faith into one that can function and build a power base in the real world. And it looks a teeny weeny little bit like yes, a loophole. It also scares me - was the “just war” theory used to justify the Inquisition? The Crusades? Now I have more information about how Christians feel about war. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/44 "2001-09-27T19:45:50Z")
As **Humble Servant** said, this thread is hoppin’. So much here that I’d like to respond to in a leisurely manner, but I’ve gotta get _some_ work done this afternoon! But a few quickies: **dropzone** - yes indeedy, don’t judge Paul on just a few verses. He wasn’t perfect, but he was remarkable - an organizer, exhorter, evangelist, and man of action, and yet a mystic and theologian. There have been few mortal men like him. **beagledave** - thanks for the ‘just war’ summation. While there are some things in there that kinda depend on how you spin them, it’s reassuring to see that it’s not that far from where I am. **magdalene** - Aquinas (mostly going back further in time by quoting Augustine - yes, this just-war stuff _has_ been around awhile!) does, IMO, open up holes large enough to allow the Church a bit too great of a comfort zone with the worldly needs of a secular nation. And **dropzone** , I personally feel this had more to do with Constantine than with Paul. As I see it, C. wrapped the Church and the State into a big ball, and they’ve never quite gotten them disentangled yet. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/45 "2001-09-27T19:48:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by magdalene \* > \*\*1. JODI, once again, I wish this were not in the Pit. > > 1. And I see commandments like “turn the other cheek” and “do not kill” as very idealistic statements meant to change the world by the example of Christians. A sort of “kill us if you want to, but you won’t make us behave like you” message designed to change the hearts of people and stop the killing in the world. \*\* 1. Just because I chose, rightly or wrongly, to post it in the Pit doesn’t mean we have to turn our brains off. Mine comes that way, but I greatly appreciate your input here. 2. And I LIKE idealism. That’s why I like the philosophy of Christianity to the point that I am a weekly churchgoer and contributer to my church in both time and treasure despite my agnosticism. They accept me as a seeker. And folks here should be glad I didn’t post the petition that was in the weekly bulletin! Talk about idealism… ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/46 "2001-09-27T19:58:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > **dropzone - yes indeedy, don’t judge Paul on just a few verses. He wasn’t perfect, but he was remarkable - an organizer, exhorter, evangelist, and man of action, and yet a mystic and theologian. There have been few mortal men like him.** I’m seeing that, thanks to my pastor. When I was a kid all I heard was the King of Grumpiness stuff. I would ask myself, “Where’s the love?” It’s there. You guys are gonna bring me back yet! ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/47 "2001-09-27T20:02:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dropzone \* > \*\* > > 1. I get it now! I realize what part of the problem is, my use of the word “all” in the title! You think I mean that ALL CHRISTIANS are violent! Nonononono! It’s a bit of semantic confusion! No, I’m talking about all of the VIOLENT Christians only. See, that’s how English works: you add a modifier to make a more specific subset of the set of all Christians. Yeesh! I wasn’t generalizing. It was you who misinterpreted what I said. > > 2. Well, that’s how I was taught. Death is cause for celebration as the dead person is reborn to eternal life. > > 3. No, but some Christians I’ve heard lately seem to. \*\* 1. Maybe it was me who wasn’t very clear…the word “ALL” suggest “LOTS” of violent Christians. I see a very few mentioned in your OP. If I said “what’s up with all the violent Muslims”…I would suspect that I would be reminded that they are a small, non-representative minority . 2. So, there is no room for sadness/grief among the friends and families of the departed? OK… 3. Ah, so now we’re down to “SOME” christians…when earlier, you said “ALL” christians since Constantin were that way…unless of course, you meant something different by THAT use of “all” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/48 "2001-09-27T20:02:57Z")
DROP, apology accepted and I apologize as well. I realize I tend to be a little over-sensitive on this, but it does somethimes appear to be open season on Christians around here. This is reinforced by reading a thread like this one (or, rather, like this one appeared to be initially) when people are simultaneously – and quite rightly – taking extra care not to generalize about Islam or its teachings. It seems like “we are going to be very respectful and careful about how we characterize one faith (Islam), but we’re not going to bother to take care with another (Christianity).” And, yes, as you’ve probably gathered, that bugs me. People who realize there is a spectrum of beliefs in Islam, and who realize Islam can be used and perverted but still remain a legitimate and, at bottom, constructive religion, should also be able to see that the same is true of Christianity. MAGDALENE – > [@](#): > > Church fathers and theologians took the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” and said “of course he didn’t mean it’s wrong to kill ALL the time, that’s ridiculous. Here’s when it’s okay to kill: - when it’s a just war, if ordered by one’s superior, and to secure one’s own safety.” Which makes perfect sense from a common sense or survival standpoint, but seems to go directly against “love your enemies, bless those who curse you, turn the other cheek, do not kill.” It’s the transformation of a very idealistic faith into one that can function and build a power base in the real world. And it looks a teeny weeny little bit like yes, a loophole. I really think this is unfair. If the commandment in question has _always_ been widely interpreted to mean “thou shalt not murder” – not “thou shalt not kill” – how are the church fathers and theologians “turning it” into anything. That, in their mind, is what it means. It is not a willful exercise in making it mean something it really does not. That’s what it means. “Love your enemies, bless those how curse you, turn the other cheek, do not murder” – none of those are incompatible with legitimate self-defense. You take reasonable intepretations of those passages and construe them as rationalizations, simply because they don’t jibe with how you prefer to read them. That’s fine as far as it goes, of course, but you are doing a great disservice to any number of religious thinkers who just happen to disagree with your intepretation, and whose disagreement is not a rationalization nor the creation of a “loophole.” And, yes, to the extent that “loophole” is used to connotate a way to avoid the legitimate law, it remains a teensy bit derrogatory, as surely you can see. > [@](#): > > It also scares me - was the “just war” theory used to justify the Inquisition? The Crusades? Oh, probably. But just because a theory is subject to misuse does not mean it is without value or does not have a legitimate use. Surely you can see that. Simply because some people might take the concept of self-defense to extend it to acts of aggression does not mean the concept of self-defense itself has no value, and cannot be defended. ---
**Author:** ![ultress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7c8e57/32.png) [@ultress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultress)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/49 "2001-09-27T20:13:15Z")
Blast those Christians!!! If not for them this world would be so much better. No one trying to guide you along a way that you have no interest in or belief in. But ya know, I’m one of those people. You have no idea every day of my life how thankful I am that the one that will be my final judge is not one from this world or especially this board. I get so sick of hearing ‘turn the other cheek.’ There’s also a verse in the Bible that says “Cast not your pearls before the swine…” I don’t have my Bible at work so I apologize that I can’t give you the exact location. You can argue all you like, make fun of all you like, even cast people that are Christians aside if you so desire. But each man has to work out his own salvation with much trembling and fear. So why not let them as long as they aren’t bothering you or hurting you? And of course, yes, as you find with most things in life, you have those over zealous people that try to get the message across in the wrong way. But you find that with most things in life. Casting out Bible verses, whether in text or out of text, is not going to change a person’s basic beliefs and actually rarely makes your point. Most Christians have read enough of the Bible to know when you take it out of text you can prove just about any point you wish to make. **Jodi** I admire you as a poster, your beliefs are admirable to other Christians. Don’t let the views and opinions of others get to you. After all, that’s all they are, views and opinions. No more right or wrong than anyone else’s, except to those that have true faith and believe. Stick to your beliefs and take these opinions with a grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/50 "2001-09-27T20:16:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*1. Maybe it was me who wasn’t very clear…the word “ALL” suggest “LOTS” of violent Christians. > > 1. So, there is no room for sadness/grief among the friends and families of the departed? OK… > > 2. …unless of course, you meant something different by THAT use of “all” 😉 \*\* 1. Then you made an interpretation that wasn’t accurate. Not my fault. 2. HAH! You forget I used to live in Wheaton, IL, and have been playing this game forever! Mat 8:21-22 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. Face it. You can’t beat me in Dueling Bible Verses. 😉 1. Okay, here’s where my own lack of restrictions comes in handy. **Dave** , do you want me to punch you now or later? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/51 "2001-09-27T20:23:37Z")
[hijack] Just for my own edification, can the poster to this thread clarify exactly how they _do_ interpret “Turn the other cheek?” I’ve used it in speaking to people like Wildest Bill, who in my opinion don’t come even close to acting like a Christian supposedly should, because I’ve always taken it to mean “Always return offense with kindness” or something of that nature. If I’m way, way off base from mainstream Christian thought, I’d like to know. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/52 "2001-09-27T20:29:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ultress \* > **Most Christians have read enough of the Bible to know when you take it out of text you can prove just about any point you wish to make.** Ah, my speciality! ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/53 "2001-09-27T20:39:25Z")
PHIL, my interpretation of “turn the other cheek” is that a person should not seek revenge. The context of the quote is the Sermon on the Mount (I think?), and more specifically where Jesus says “You have heard it said ‘an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,’ but I say 'turn the other cheek” – or words to that effect. There is also a school of thought that “turn the other cheek” refers specifically to being insulted – the insult being to be struck in the face – and that the point is that one should not resist insult or give insults in return. (Personally I, um, have a little trouble with that – she said in understatement). It has not to my knowledge historically been interpreted to mean that one should not defend oneself, one’s family, or the innocent. The thinking is that if that was the point, Jesus would have spoken about an injury far more grave and dangerous than being slapped – if He expected people not to defend themselves. There is no question that pacifist Christians intepret this text, and the relevant commandment to mean that one must never do injury to another, no matter how provoked. But there is an equally legitimate belief by other Christians that to allow oneself or, worse, an innocent to be injured by an evildoer is acceding to the doing of evil, and is, therefore, itself an evil act. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/54 "2001-09-27T20:44:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > **clarify exactly how they _do_ interpret "Turn the other cheek?"** There are several interpretations. One is “Thank you sir, may I have another?” in which you show contempt for your own corporeality. Another is explained in [this link.](http://www.flick.com/~liralen/faith/cheek.html) Sounds like a stretch, but interesting. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/55 "2001-09-27T20:50:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > **PHIL, my interpretation of “turn the other cheek” is that a person should not seek revenge. The context of the quote is the Sermon on the Mount (I think?), and more specifically where Jesus says “You have heard it said ‘an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,’ but I say 'turn the other cheek” – or words to that effect** So it’s more of a, “Seek justice, but not personal vengeance” rather than a, “Let yourself get pushed around” thing? That makes sense. I never thought of it that way. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/56 "2001-09-27T21:06:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\*or words to that effect. \*\* Matthew 5:38-39: You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also." Were I one who interpreted Bible verses I might come to the conclusion that He’s telling us to just take the hit. But I’m not so I won’t. 😉 **Jodi** , we’ve both had some of our fundamental beliefs attacked lately, sometimes by each other. I’m glad we can put that behind us. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/57 "2001-09-27T21:08:28Z")
**Phil** , though IANAC, I believe it to mean that no violence, physical or otherwise, should be returned with violence. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/58 "2001-09-27T21:37:20Z")
Sermon on the Mount is Chs. 5-7 of Matthew. Search here: [http://etext.virginia.edu/rsv.browse.html](http://etext.virginia.edu/rsv.browse.html) Gotta run! ---
**Author:** ![magdalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@magdalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magdalene)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/59 "2001-09-27T22:15:12Z")
andros, I interpret it the way you do. Thanks for the searchable bible, RTFirefly! From Matthew Chapter 5. > [@](#): > > 19: Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. > [@](#): > > 38: "You have heard that it was said, `An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ > > 39: But I say to you, **Do not resist one who is evil**. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; > > 40: and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; > > 41: and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. JODI, I respectfully submit that I see nothing to support the “killing is okay in self-defense or just war” interpretation. That may be part of Christianity, the modern religion, as it is practiced here. But “Do not resist one who is evil”… How do you reconcile it? Why isn’t “murder” the same as “killing” in your interpretation? I’m not saying that resisting evil people, fighting injustice, and killing people in defense of life or freedom is not common-sensical. But Christianity asks us to resist or refrain from a great many things that are instinctive and normal-seeming in service to God. I think Jesus was quite a radical man, looking to completely change the order of human living. Later theologians like Aquinas and Augustine and those who interpret “thou shalt not kill” to mean “thou shalt not _murder_, but killing is okay if…” were not quite so radical - as Christianity spread and gained worldly power there was less interest in challenging the morality of war, and more interest in making sure that wars were just and conducted for moral reasons. Which is better than nothing - just wars, with care taken for civilians, with attention to cause and conduct and proportional response, etc. are better than unjust wars. The problem is that BOTH sides in a war always think that they are fighting for a just cause. Who decides which cause is just? That is why “turn the other cheek” and “love thine enemies” is such a revolutionary way of thinking. I admire your love of justice and eloquence in its defense to no end, so I am interested in what you have to say. > [@](#): > > 22: …and whoever says, `You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire. If God reads the Pit I’m in a world of trouble…😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2001, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119/60 "2001-09-27T23:03:34Z")
MAGDALENE – > [@](#): > > I respectfully submit that I see nothing to support the “killing is okay in self-defense or just war” interpretation. That may be part of Christianity, the modern religion, as it is practiced here. With all due respect, I don’t really care if you see it or not. It is enough for me to feel that you recognize that your strict interpretation is neither mine nor that held by the majority of mainstream Christianity. I am not trying to argue you out of your position; I am merely not allowing you to tell me it ought to be mine. > [@](#): > > But “Do not resist one who is evil” . . . How do you reconcile it? Why isn’t “murder” the same as “killing” in your interpretation? These are two different questions. The first is, how do you reconcile “do not resist one who is evil” with self-defense? First, you surely see that this phrase cannot be accepted literally, in that Jesus would advise His followers to not resist evildoers in any way. It is more often interpreted, in context, as “do not lash out at evil persons in vengeance” – ie, immediately hitting back someone who has hit you. Second, it has also been argued that the phrase is mistranslated, in that it is a reference to Psalm 37 (Jesus quite often quoting the OT, especially in the Sermon on the Mount, where he was giving His own “spin” on many OT texts). That phrase is “do not fret about evildoers.” Third, it is also argued that the phrase is limited to the context of non-lethal action – ie, that if you are not merely returning insult for insult, which is what Jesus was talking about, then you should not do it. Again, this is not irreconcilable with self-defense, because Jesus wasn’t talking about self-defense in the first place. Second, it is easy to distinguish between “murder” and “killing” because the words have two different meanings. To kill means “to deprive of life.” “Murder” means “the _unlawful_ killing of one human being by another.” ([Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com); emphasis added.) It is reasonable to believe that God commanded men not to murder, and not to kill, because _after_ He gave them the commandments He also gave them laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy providing for capital punishment. Why would He ask His people to break the very commandment He had given them? > [@](#): > > I’m not saying that resisting evil people, fighting injustice, and killing people in defense of life or freedom is not common-sensical. But Christianity asks us to resist or refrain from a great many things that are instinctive and normal-seeming in service to God. Not my Christianity, it doesn’t. Christianity asks me to try to overcome that which is negative, small, and evil in myself (greed, anger, vanity, etc.) and to embrace that which is good, and to try to follow the teachings of Christ. It does not ask me to do one thing that does not make sense to me. > [@](#): > > I think Jesus was quite a radical man, looking to completely change the order of human living. Later theologians like Aquinas and Augustine and those who interpret “thou shalt not kill” to mean “thou shalt not murder, but killing is okay if…” were not quite so radical - as Christianity spread and gained worldly power there was less interest in challenging the morality of war, and more interest in making sure that wars were just and conducted for moral reasons. You continiue to insist that the interpretation of the commandment as “thou shalt not murder” is some late-coming change from how it _really_ was meant to be read. For reasons just given above, I think this is simply incorrect. It _never_ meant “thou shalt not kill, ever ever ever,” as is evinced by the fact that the Law of Moses provided that murderers, idolaters, and adulterers (among others) were to be put to death. > [@](#): > > The problem is that BOTH sides in a war always think that they are fighting for a just cause. Who decides which cause is just? That is why “turn the other cheek” and “love thine enemies” is such a revolutionary way of thinking. Let me ask you this: If your child was attacked, to be raped and killed by an aggressor, do you really believe that Christianity would expect you to do nothing – that you are required by a Christian faith to “not resist the evildoer”? Because if I thought that was what Christianity meant, I wouldn’t practice it either. There comes a point where failing to resist evil is itself an evil act. I do not say that such decisions are easy to make, or the true “right” side always easy to find, but just because it isn’t easy doesn’t mean it isn’t still valid. I would add, parenthetically, that I am no Bible scholar, and what limited materials I _do_ have, I don’t have here at work. I would suggest that if you truly were curious about how the Catholic church or Christianity in general reconciles these passages, that you do a quick web search, as I just did. There are abundant materials out there, written by people who are certainly going to do a better job of explaining this that I ever could. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-all-these-violent-christians-come-from/84119.md?page=4)