# Where did "black maria" come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 22, 2000, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930 "2000-04-22T01:39:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/1 "2000-04-22T01:39:00Z")
The other day I was passed by an emergency vehicle with a lightbar going that I thought at first was an ambulance, but I saw as it went past that it said “Police Transport Vehicle” on the side. “Ah, a paddy wagon!” I said to my children. “Also sometimes known as a Black Maria.” I wish I could say that they begged me to tell them how those names came about, but no. They preferred to listen to the radio. But it did bug me the rest of the afternoon, so I came home and looked it up on the Internet. It looks like “paddy wagon” probably came from all those drunken, good-for-nothing Irish that needed to be bundled up and toted off during the 19th century (please address all legal correspondence concerning PC lawsuits to Cecil Adams, c/o The Last House on the Left, the Mind of God, Chicago, IL). However, “black maria” has me stumped. Shall I believe the all-too-facile explanation found below (the only one I could find at [onelook.com](http://onelook.com))? Sounds to me like something cooked up on the spur of the moment by someone whose kids were nagging him for an explanation. Seems to me that someone told me a long time ago that it had something to do with the card game “whist” or maybe it was hearts. I don’t play cards, so I don’t know. Didn’t see that mentioned anywhere. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Main Entry: pad·dy wagon > Pronunciation: 'pa-dE- > Function: noun > Etymology: probably from Paddy > Date: 1930 > : an enclosed motortruck used by police to carry prisoners – called also Black Maria, patrol wagon > > 1. Paddy, Mick, Mickey – (ethnic slur; a person of Irish descent) > 2. paddy, paddy field, rice paddy – (an irrigated or flooded field where rice is grown) > 3. paddy – (rice in the husk either gathered or still in the field) > > Black Maria - The black van which conveys prisoners from the police courts to jail. The French call a mud-barge a “Marie-salope.” The tradition is that the van referred to was so called from Maria Lee, a negress, who kept a sailors’ boarding house in Boston. She was a woman of such great size and strength that the unruly stood in dread of her, and when constables required help, it was a common thing to send for Black Maria, who soon collared the refractory and led them to the lock-up. So a prison-van was called a “Black Maria.” \*\* This sounds a little too pat to me. ## Thoughts? “Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/2 "2000-04-22T02:43:00Z")
IIRC Boston plus French is a no go. Irish, yes, Italian, certainly, WASP, of course but French? Maybe the French just had the good sense to leave Boston before I was old enough to play there. * * * Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/3 "2000-04-22T05:35:00Z")
The French mud-barge appears to be an irrelevant side-note. The text is taken just about verbatim from Brewer, so we at least have a nineteenth century citation (from a moderately reputable _British_ source) for this American term. * * * Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_Bowe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@Doug\_Bowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_Bowe)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/4 "2000-04-22T06:17:00Z")
Main Entry: Black Ma·ria Pronunciation: "blak-m&-'rI-& Function: noun Date: 1847 : PADDY WAGON –from Britannica. This is starting to go in circles. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/5 "2000-04-22T06:42:00Z")
The **OED** : **1847** _Boston Evening Traveller 25 Sept. 2/3_ A new Black Maria. . . a new wagon for the conveyance of prisoners to and from the courts of justice. * * * ## No info on Maria Lee of Boston. Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/6 "2000-04-22T06:47:00Z")
It is writen, in the book of Partridge: > [@](#): > > **_black maria_. A prison van, for the conveyance of prisoners. From ca. 1870: orig. c.; by 1902, s.; by 1930, coll. H., 5th ed.; Ware. Occ. _sable Maria_ (** by 1920). By personification. – 2. A gun that ejects a shell emitting a dense cloud of smoke (1915); the shell or its burst (Oct. 1914): military. Ex sense 1. F. & Gibbons, ‘The Germans, curiously, had a similar term, “Schwarze Maria”, for our heavy shells.’ There’s also an interesting entry on the subject in _The Facts on File Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins_, but I don’t happen to have access to that book right now. ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/7 "2000-04-22T06:54:00Z")
J. A., What does this part mean? ## “.orig. c.; by 1902, s.; by 1930, coll. H., 5th ed.; Ware. Occ. sable Maria (\*\* by 1920). By personification.” Thanks Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/8 "2000-04-22T07:16:00Z")
> [@](#): > > .orig. c. Origin: Cant [it came from the argot of the underworld] > [@](#): > > by 1902, s. Was general slang by 1902 > [@](#): > > by 1930, coll. H., 5th ed. Was colloquial by 1930, according to Hotten’s _The Slang Dictionary_, fifth edition. > [@](#): > > Ware. Occ. _sable Maria_ (\*\* by 1920). According to Ware’s _Passing English_, it was occasionally rendered as _sable Maria_, which was absolete by 1920. {the double-asterisk is actually a representation of Partridge’s dagger} > [@](#): > > By personification. When an thing or concept is described as a person, it’s called _personification_. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/9 "2000-04-22T14:42:00Z")
And now you have me doubting the quality of **Partridge**. (!) They are claiming an 1870 appearance labeled cant when we already have a reference that is 23 years older published in a newspaper. (I will cut them some slack on the grounds that **Partridge** is firmly grounded in British slang and it may have not made an appearance there until later (when/where some crook brought it home from the states). The Black Maria exploding shell appears to have no relation to the paddy wagon. * * * Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/10 "2000-04-22T15:02:00Z")
The card reference that Notthemama mentions is likely to hearts, where the Queen of Spades is sometimes referred to as Black Maria. I don’t see any connect to the use of the term to describe a police lock-up van. I would guess that the two terms evolved independently? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/11 "2000-04-22T18:05:00Z")
## So, are the Teeming Millions officially stumped? I know what the phrase means, I just wanna know where it came from. “Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_Bowe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@Doug\_Bowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_Bowe)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/12 "2000-04-22T18:11:00Z")
The weekend isn’t over yet. And a number of thoughtful contributors will be more available after sundown. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/13 "2000-04-22T23:36:00Z")
I don’t think this will help, but from the German side (the artillery shell business got me thinking of this) the German slang equivilant for the Black Maria is Gruene Minna-- not “black Maria” but “Green Minnie”. For whatever it’s worth. . . Probably just popped up with the common use of a feminine name with the color of whatever the thing was for a slang term. Like Big Bertha for the cannon. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/14 "2000-04-23T00:37:00Z")
**tomndebb** wrote: > [@](#): > > And now you have me doubting the quality of Partridge. (!) They are claiming an 1870 appearance labeled cant when we already have a reference that is 23 years older published in a newspaper. I wouldn’t worry too much for Partridge’s reputation. It’s not as though he could find the earliest possible citation by running a search engine. No matter how good you are, it’s always possible that there’s an earlier instantiation that nobody has unearthed yet. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/15 "2000-04-23T22:20:00Z")
Alreet. Now that I have access to it, I’ll post what _The Facts on File Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins_ has to say about **Black Maria** : > [@](#): > > **Black Maria.** Maria Lee, an imposing black woman, became a national heroine in 1798 when she delivered swivel guns to outfit the little cutters Alexander Hamilton had ordered built to protect American merchant ships on the high seas. Maria was just as reliable when she opened her boardinghouse for sailors in the early 1800s; her place was the cleanest and her guests the best-mannered on the Boston waterfront because even hardened criminals feared her awesome strength. The giant woman aided the police so often that the saying “send for the Black Maria” became common whenever there was trouble with an offender. Fiery Maria sometimes helped escort prisoners to jail, and when the first British police horse vans or paddy wagons were introduced in 1838 they may have been christened Black Marias in her honor. But this tradition has skimpy evidence to support it. Critics point out that the first van and that and that _Maria_ (which is pronounced _mar-eye-ah_) could have come from numerous sources. There you have it. Informative, yet useless. ---
**Author:** ![Mussaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Mussaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mussaf)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/16 "2014-12-13T16:52:36Z")
Wikipedia: "In 1932, Black Maria suffered a broken leg as a result of a paddock accident and was humanely destroyed. She was named after an earlier world famous black racehorse,whose name was pronounced Black ‘Moriah’, which was foaled in Harlem, New York, in 1826 who won many races (her purse winnings alone amounted to nearly $15,000, a very large sum for the period).The most famous exploit was on 13 October 1832, when she won the race for the Jockey Club purse of $600 at the Union Course. In 1870, an article about her in Harper’s New Monthly Magazine noted that “The track was heavy, and yet, to achieve a victory, twenty miles had to be run. We wonder if there is a horse on the turf to-day that could stand up under such a performance as this?”. Her speed was implied in the nickname given to horsedrawn black (or dark blue) Police prisoner vans of the period who swiftly whisked felons away from the scene of a crime. This name for a Police van was adopted in Britain and even France where a similar term was already in use." My Da, born 1910, always pronounced it “Moriah”, but he was a Dubliner. “Paddy wagon” might have got you a knuckle sandwich. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/17 "2014-12-13T17:43:08Z")
World Wide Words has an entry: [Black Maria](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bla1.htm) After dismissing most of the commonly held beliefs, he offers this: > [@](#): > > Douglas G Wilson has suggested a possible association with a famous black racehorse of the period, also named Black Maria, which was foaled in Harlem, New York, in 1826. She won many races (her purse winnings alone amounted to nearly $15,000, a very large sum for the period), but it seems that her most famous exploit was on 13 October 1832, when she won the race for the Jockey Club purse of $600 at the Union Course. In 1870, an article about her in Harper’s New Monthly Magazine noted that “The track was heavy, and yet, to achieve a victory, twenty miles had to be run. We wonder if there is a horse on the turf to-day that could stand up under such a performance as this?”. > > The dates are highly suggestive. Here is a black racehorse whose most famous exploit is in New York in 1832, and only three years later her name is used for a police van in the same city. There can be no proof without further evidence — which may never be forthcoming — but like her many admirers, I’d put my money on her to be first past the post. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-black-maria-come-from/10930/18 "2014-12-13T22:57:28Z")
Wikipedia explores the tymology in some depth. > **[Police van | Black Maria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_van#Black_Maria)** > > These vehicles were usually painted black or a very dark blue. In the United Kingdom, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand and the United States, a police wagon was also sometimes called a Black Maria (/məˈraɪə/ mə-RY-ə). The origin of this term is equally uncertain. The name Black Maria is common for race horses beginning with an 1832 appearance in Niles Weekly Register (October 10) and then again in Colburn's New Monthly Magazine and Humorist (1841). The OED lists the first usage in 1835. An e > The ... Ngram viewer shows that the expression was at it’s peak in the USA before the Civil War, and then rose in popularity again with the arrival of the horseless ones, peaking in the 1950s in both the USA and UK…