# Where did blacksmiths of yore get new iron? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 8, 2007, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007 "2007-10-08T23:11:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/1 "2007-10-08T23:11:04Z")
Prior to the industrial revolution (and following too, but that isn’t the information that I am interested in), I expect that the bulk of the stock that a blacksmith used was recycled. However, I also expect that he would need at least some new material from time to time. Where did he get it? Would small villages have a bloomery? Many places are iron poor, so I would think that iron and steel would have to be delivered to these places. What forms did it come in? I have seen pictures of northern European unfinished sword blanks that were used as trade items, but were there other forms? Does anyone know how things changed from the beginning of the iron age until the 19th century? Thanks for your help, Rob ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2007, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/2 "2007-10-08T23:54:13Z")
Iron has been mined for millennia. Top of the list from Google UK is [http://www.pastperfect.info/sites/oldrookhope/archive/43.html](http://www.pastperfect.info/sites/oldrookhope/archive/43.html) ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/3 "2007-10-09T01:04:23Z")
[QUOTE=sweeteviljesus] Where did he get it? Would small villages have a bloomery? [/quote] Nope, iron was mined and smelted at specific sites and then shipped around the country or the world. > [@](#): > > What forms did it come in? Ingots and bars depending on the quantity needed. > [@](#): > > Does anyone know how things changed from the beginning of the iron age until the 19th century? Early iron age iron was rare, was smelted on relatively small scales and the ingots were smaller. Things progresse dover time and by the late 19th century iron was being smelted by the thousand tonne in coal powered mills and shipped around the world in similar quantities. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/4 "2007-10-09T01:19:44Z")
[QUOTE=Blake] Nope, iron was mined and smelted at specific sites and then shipped around the country or the world. [/QUOTE] So, whoever smelted, dealt it? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/5 "2007-10-09T02:43:06Z")
I once asked the blacksmith of Williamsburg the very same question! He said that it didn’t take long for mining to start in the hills of Western VA (and/or today’s WVa) by prospectors and pioneers willing to go live in the wilderness and cart their raw goods to town. BUT! One little colonial secret never taught in Elementary School was that the colonial ironworks were not allowed to compete with the British. Principio Furnace in MD was one of the 1st and largest iron smelters in the Colonies, but their iron had to be exported to England only to be imported (and taxed) back to the Colonies as usable goods (use this link and scroll down to the last paragraph under the heading “The Significance of the Principio in Colonial Times”.) [http://www.seakayak.ws/kayak/kayak.nsf/NavigationList/NT0000CA5A](http://www.seakayak.ws/kayak/kayak.nsf/NavigationList/NT0000CA5A) This was yet another economic grievance the Colonists held against the Crown. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/6 "2007-10-09T03:42:21Z")
I don’t have any voluminous cites handy, but I have come across a large number of references to objects, including swords, being made, reputedly from meteoric iron. Yeah, sounds like something out of fantasy, but I remember reading one book where it was claimed that meteoric iron, dredged up from tilling fields, was common enough that it was well-known. Anyone else hear of that? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/7 "2007-10-09T03:47:30Z")
[QUOTE=Jinx] One little colonial secret never taught in Elementary School was that the colonial ironworks were not allowed to compete with the British. Principio Furnace in MD was one of the 1st and largest iron smelters in the Colonies, but their iron had to be exported to England only to be imported (and taxed) back to the Colonies as usable goods [/QUOTE] This is hardly secret. While they rarely mention specific industries, it’s commonly taught that economic issues, such as taxation, Crown monopolies, and the restriction of industry and competition were important. No, they don’t specifically mention iron production, but neither do they specifically mention many other industries. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/8 "2007-10-09T04:24:38Z")
[QUOTE=Una Persson] I don’t have any voluminous cites handy, but I have come across a large number of references to objects, including swords, being made, reputedly from meteoric iron. Yeah, sounds like something out of fantasy, but I remember reading one book where it was claimed that meteoric iron, dredged up from tilling fields, was common enough that it was well-known. Anyone else hear of that? [/QUOTE] Yes. My understanding is, that especially prior to effective smelting techniques, when iron was difficult to obtain, this was a significant source of elemental iron. Terrestrial iron is almost never in elemental form, as it reacts with other substances. In other words, it rusts. Iron on meteors was not exposed to oxygen and other oxidizers,and remained relatively pure. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/9 "2007-10-09T12:21:02Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] So, whoever smelted, dealt it? 😃 [/QUOTE] I’ve just been given a very funny look thanks to you. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/10 "2007-10-09T14:16:54Z")
I hate “Google it!” responses, but do a bit of research on “bog iron”. From Wikipedia ([Bog iron - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_iron)): > [@](#): > > Bog iron refers to impure iron deposits that develop in bogs or swamps by the chemical or biochemical oxidation of iron carried in the solutions. In general, bog ores consist primarily of iron oxyhydroxides, commonly goethite (FeO(OH)). It was discovered during the Pre-Roman Iron Age, and most Viking era iron was smelted from bog iron. > > Iron-bearing groundwater typically emerges as a spring. The iron is oxidized to ferric hydroxide upon encountering the oxic environment of the surface. Bog ore often combines goethite, magnetite and vugs or stained quartz. It is not clear whether the magnetite precipitates upon first contact with oxygen, then oxidizes to ferric compounds, or whether the ferric compounds are reduced when exposed to anoxic conditions upon burial beneath the sediment surface and reoxidized upon exhumation at the surface. > > In colonial New Jersey bog ore was mined and refined and used for production of tools, wrought iron rails, many of which still grace stairs in Trenton and Camden) which do not rust like modern iron alloys. During the American Revolution the iron was used for cannon balls for the American forces. Bog iron is actually something of a renewable resource. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/11 "2007-10-09T14:32:46Z")
In the town where I live they built the first _permanent_ ironworks in New England (I’m wary of making claims beyond the region, although others aren’t. There was a short-lived one in Quincy before the one in Saugus, but it didn’t last. There’s a monument to it down there). What’s cool about the Saugus Iron Works is that they were able to dig in and relocate many of the parts (the original water wheel, the massive forging hammer head). The site has been reconstructed into a working ironworks, so you can see exacyly how they did it. If you go to the blacksmith shop on the site, they’ll actually forge a swuare nail for you from slotted bar stock. Unfortunately, you can’t visit right now – the site’s being reconstructed. But they’ll be open in a few months: > **[Saugus Iron Works National Historic Site (U.S. National Park Service)](https://www.nps.gov/sair/index.htm)** > **[Saugus Iron Works National Historic Site](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saugus_Iron_Works_National_Historic_Site)** > > Saugus Iron Works National Historic Site is a National Historic Site about 10 miles (16 kilometers) northeast of Downtown Boston in Saugus, Massachusetts. It is the site of the first integrated ironworks in North America, founded by John Winthrop the Younger and in operation between 1646 and approximately 1670. It includes the reconstructed blast furnace, forge, rolling mill, shear, slitter and a quarter-ton trip hammer. > The facility is powered by seven large waterwheels, some of which are rig... [http://www.pbubuilder.org/PBUFiles/110/Student/saugus6\_1e\_20050210145608/index.htm](http://www.pbubuilder.org/PBUFiles/110/Student/saugus6_1e_20050210145608/index.htm) ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/12 "2007-10-09T14:49:44Z")
I am familiar with how iron is smelted, but I was unsure how it goes from smelter to blacksmith. Early in the iron age, smelting and blacksmithing were probably integrated, but I don’t believe it was long before every little village had a blacksmith. How did the goods get from smelter to smith and in what form did they arrive? If you know, how did you find out? It is probably something I would like to read. BTW, all pre-Iron Age iron was meteorite iron. A famous example of this is the dagger found in King Tut’s tomb. Custom knife makers today still use meteoric iron occasionally. Thanks for your help, Rob ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/13 "2007-10-09T15:02:46Z")
Isn’t ‘meteoric iron’ really closer to steel? Iron + carbon + heat = steel? I know that’s simple, but I always thought that the heat of atmospheric entry changed it. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/14 "2007-10-09T15:33:20Z")
[QUOTE=hotflungwok] Isn’t ‘meteoric iron’ really closer to steel? Iron + carbon + heat = steel? I know that’s simple, but I always thought that the heat of atmospheric entry changed it. [/QUOTE] Actually, meteoric iron is, IIRC, usually an FeNi alloy. I wouldn’t expect it to contain much carbon, if any. That is why a lot of those pre-Iron Age iron daggers were strictly ornamental. Iron isn’t good for weapons. You need to mix in (or take out) carbon to turn it into steel. This can be done in a blacksmith’s forge, either by case-hardening or by putting the steel in the reducing part of the fire. The Craft of the Japanese Sword describes how tamahagane ingots can have their carbon content adjusted in this manner. These days, you would probably weld together a billet of meteoric iron and, say, 1095, but I am not sure because I have never done it. FWIW, Rob ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/15 "2007-10-09T16:16:09Z")
[QUOTE=sweeteviljesus] Actually, meteoric iron is, IIRC, usually an FeNi alloy. I wouldn’t expect it to contain much carbon, if any. That is why a lot of those pre-Iron Age iron daggers were strictly ornamental. Iron isn’t good for weapons. You need to mix in (or take out) carbon to turn it into steel. This can be done in a blacksmith’s forge, either by case-hardening or by putting the steel in the reducing part of the fire. The Craft of the Japanese Sword describes how tamahagane ingots can have their carbon content adjusted in this manner. These days, you would probably weld together a billet of meteoric iron and, say, 1095, but I am not sure because I have never done it. FWIW, Rob [/QUOTE] [Something like that.](http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.02/dragonslayer.html) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/16 "2007-10-09T18:04:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I am familiar with how iron is smelted, but I was unsure how it goes from smelter to blacksmith. Early in the iron age, smelting and blacksmithing were probably integrated, but I don’t believe it was long before every little village had a blacksmith. How did the goods get from smelter to smith and in what form did they arrive? If you know, how did you find out? It is probably something I would like to read. The iron from the Saugus ironworks left in the form of iron “pigs’\*, or long thin sheets (about 3/8”-1/2" thick), or the sheets might be run through a slitting mill to turn them into square cross-section bars perfect for making nails). - "Pigs’ were made by gouging a trough with branches in the sand at the base of your smelting tower. You open the trapdoor and the iron pours out into the main trough, then into the branches to wider reservoirs that formed the ingots. When it cooled, you broke the “pigs” = ingots off the tree. They called them “pigs” because they looked like suckling pigs attached to the sow (the main trough). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/17 "2007-10-09T18:23:45Z")
Some iron in England came from as far afield as [Sweden and Germany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmond_iron) , in the form of either iron balls (_osmonds_) or iron bars. . ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/18 "2007-10-09T19:38:49Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Some iron in England came from as far afield as [Sweden and Germany](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmond_iron) , in the form of either iron balls (_osmonds_) or iron bars. . [/QUOTE] Were pairs of them referred to as “Donnie and Marie”? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/19 "2007-10-09T21:24:55Z")
\>Principio Furnace in MD was one of the 1st and largest iron smelters in the Colonies I had the honor about 30 years ago of hiking around this Furnace, at a time that it was not much publicized or visited. I found there the remains of an unusual 2 cylinder steam engine that had its flywheel geared to the crankshaft rather than directly on it. Apparently, colonial iron goods manufacture was done through two kinds of manufactory. The Furnace was a large operation that processed huge quantities of iron ore near a mine, and made a huge mess, a big environmental impact. They would ship their product, iron, to Forges. The Forge was a small operation that turned iron into useful articles. Forges were located near their customers, typically near cities. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007/20 "2007-10-09T22:36:16Z")
[QUOTE=sweeteviljesus] Actually, meteoric iron is, IIRC, usually an FeNi alloy. I wouldn’t expect it to contain much carbon, if any. That is why a lot of those pre-Iron Age iron daggers were strictly ornamental. Iron isn’t good for weapons. You need to mix in (or take out) carbon to turn it into steel. This can be done in a blacksmith’s forge, either by case-hardening or by putting the steel in the reducing part of the fire. The Craft of the Japanese Sword describes how tamahagane ingots can have their carbon content adjusted in this manner. These days, you would probably weld together a billet of meteoric iron and, say, 1095, but I am not sure because I have never done it. FWIW, Rob [/QUOTE] Did the ancient Romans make steel? They used a lotof iron (in architecture) nad must have had quite an iron industry-but were Roman swords iron or steel? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-blacksmiths-of-yore-get-new-iron/422007.md?page=2)