# Where did David Icke get this idea about Reptilians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163 "2009-07-24T22:10:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/1 "2009-07-24T22:10:41Z")
I just want to know where David Icke got the idea that there are reptilians that run the world. I can understand the idea about there being an Illuminati, I just don’t know how the reptiles entered the picture. (Please try to refrain from snide and dismissive responses and personal attacks.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/2 "2009-07-24T23:17:44Z")
It’s tough to come up with any answer that doesn’t involve mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/3 "2009-07-24T23:28:20Z")
According to [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke): > [@](#): > > . . . many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie. It would take a unique mind to come up with \*\*\*any \*\*\* link among these four individuals . . . but “reptilian” is quite beyond the bounds of reason. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/4 "2009-07-24T23:35:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s tough to come up with any answer that doesn’t involve mental illness. Schizophrenia is not really a mental illness. Most anthropologists agree that the prophets, fakirs, saints, and shamans of times past were schizophrenic, and there is a large body of research about this fascinating condition. For example, it’s been found that schizophrenics who are allowed to listen to their “voices” without interference tend to be much higher functioning than those whose “voices” are suppressed through drugs or therapy. This suggests that schizophrenics have a traditional role to perform in human culture, and that it has become a problem only because we have robbed schizophrenics of their jobs. Schizophrenic artwork is rife with archetypes. It’s probably the single most common trait shared among schizophrenics. This suggests that schizophrenics see _more_ that the general population, not less. The problem is that they are seeing the various archetypal symbols directly, without the translation into more concrete representational forms that the rest of us use. In the case of David Icke, he is extremely perceptive in his observations. Those he calls “reptilians” really are reptilian in the sense that they are motivated by the reptilian portion of the brain, all rage and lust and greed and selfishness. The more gentle mammalian and primate parts of their brain, those which give us the capacity for empathy and compassion, are either malfunctioning or suppressed. Because David Icke perceives this directly rather than through the more abstract representations the rest of us use, he literally sees them to be lizards. A person wishing to understand the true form of the world beneath its surface could do worse than to pay close attention to the modern shamans like Icke. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/5 "2009-07-24T23:40:00Z")
Sinister Reptilian aliens are common throughout UFOlogy: > **[Reptilian conspiracy theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilian_alien#In_UFOlogy)** > > Reportedly haunted locations: > Reptilians (also called reptoids, archons, reptiloids, saurians, draconians, or lizard people) are supposed reptilian humanoids, which play a prominent role in fantasy, science fiction, ufology, and conspiracy theories. The idea of reptilians was popularised by David Icke, a conspiracy theorist who claims shapeshifting reptilian aliens control Earth by taking on human form and gaining political power to manipulate human societies. Icke has stated on multiple occas... ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/6 "2009-07-25T00:08:43Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Schizophrenia is not really a mental illness. What? Schizophrenia is a condition that affects the mind, therefore mental. It is not present in normal healthy humans, and those humans who do have it develop it after not having it, therefore illness. If you mean it’s not necessarily harmful depending on the case and the general societal attitudes toward it, I’m prepared to accept that (I personally don’t agree, but I’m not well-read on the subject\*). If you’re arguing that “mental illness” is an unfortunately stigmatized term, well, I’m right with you, but I just don’t see how you can say that schizophrenia is not a mental illness. \*I do question your anthropology, though: the way you phrased it does not jibe with my understanding of contemporary anthropology. Your use of the phrase “shaman” to describe Icke isn’t consistent with the anthropological use of that term, either. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/7 "2009-07-25T00:14:43Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > In the case of David Icke, he is extremely perceptive in his observations. Those he calls “reptilians” really are reptilian in the sense that they are motivated by the reptilian portion of the brain, all rage and lust and greed and selfishness. The more gentle mammalian and primate parts of their brain, those which give us the capacity for empathy and compassion, are either malfunctioning or suppressed. Because David Icke perceives this directly rather than through the more abstract representations the rest of us use, he literally sees them to be lizards. A person wishing to understand the true form of the world beneath its surface could do worse than to pay close attention to the modern shamans like Icke. This is just pure speculation, and not worthy of GQ. What “reptilian portion of the brain”? And if there is one, how do you conclude that “rage, lust, greed and selfishness” originate there? How do you know that there are “gentler” parts of the brain that are “mammalian and primate” in nature? Etc. Answer - you don’t. You just imagine those things to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/8 "2009-07-25T00:27:03Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > What? Schizophrenia is a condition that affects the mind, therefore mental. It is not present in normal healthy humans, and those humans who do have it develop it after not having it, therefore illness. About 1% of the population is thought to be schizophrenic. This is a relatively large proportion. Furthermore, if they were permitted to fulfill their traditional role within the tribe, they would not only function well within the community, but be regarded with respect and admiration rather than fear and/or pity. Schizophrenia is a gift, not a curse. It is we, the less perceptive, who have turned it into a so-called “mental illness.” > [@Ximenean](#): > > This is just pure speculation, and not worthy of GQ. What “reptilian portion of the brain”? And if there is one, how do you conclude that “rage, lust, greed and selfishness” originate there? How do you know that there are “gentler” parts of the brain that are “mammalian and primate” in nature? Etc. > > Answer - you don’t. You just imagine those things to be the case. [Triune Brain Model](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triune_brain). I am always a bit surprised at the viciousness with which posters to SD attack models with which they are not familiar. ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/9 "2009-07-25T00:32:19Z")
> [@](#): > > . Most anthropologists agree that the prophets, fakirs, saints, and shamans of times past were schizophrenic, and there is a large body of research about this fascinating condition. Just because some societies accepted these people doesnt mean they are not ill. I mean, we are justifying mental illness because of what peasants in the middle ages thought of saints? Please. > [@](#): > > Those he calls “reptilians” really are reptilian in the sense that they are motivated by the reptilian portion of the brain What? He believes in fucking space reptiles, man. He also believes in the lluminati and talks to spirits via mediums. He’s not a poet coming up with amusing metaphors. He’s a sick man and I pity him. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/10 "2009-07-25T00:32:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Schizophrenia is not really a mental illness. Most anthropologists agree that the prophets, fakirs, saints, and shamans of times past were schizophrenic, and there is a large body of research about this fascinating condition. For example, it’s been found that schizophrenics who are allowed to listen to their “voices” without interference tend to be much higher functioning than those whose “voices” are suppressed through drugs or therapy. This suggests that schizophrenics have a traditional role to perform in human culture, and that it has become a problem only because we have robbed schizophrenics of their jobs. > > Schizophrenic artwork is rife with archetypes. It’s probably the single most common trait shared among schizophrenics. This suggests that schizophrenics see _more_ that the general population, not less. The problem is that they are seeing the various archetypal symbols directly, without the translation into more concrete representational forms that the rest of us use. \*\*SmashTheState \*\*you did so well with a crippling neurological disease I thought maybe you could romanticize away some other unpleasantness. I dunno maybe Alzheimer’s? Cholera? Domestic violence? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/11 "2009-07-25T00:36:51Z")
> [@](#): > > I am always a bit surprised at the viciousness with which posters to SD attack models with which they are not familiar. Ever think maybe it’s you? ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/12 "2009-07-25T00:37:56Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > [Triune Brain Model](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triune_brain). I am always a bit surprised at the viciousness with which posters to SD attack models with which they are not familiar. That’s just a link to a Wikipedia page about some speculative theory. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/13 "2009-07-25T01:09:47Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Those he calls “reptilians” really are reptilian in the sense that they are motivated by the reptilian portion of the brain, all rage and lust and greed and selfishness. How can you say such vile things about _ **Boxcar Willie?** _ ---
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/14 "2009-07-25T01:11:02Z")
I’m asking if anyone knows where HE SAYS he got the idea from. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/15 "2009-07-25T01:13:07Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Schizophrenia is not really a mental illness. **Most anthropologists agree that the prophets, fakirs, saints, and shamans of times past were schizophrenic, and there is a large body of research about this fascinating condition**. For example, it’s been found that schizophrenics who are allowed to listen to their “voices” without interference tend to be much higher functioning than those whose “voices” are suppressed through drugs or therapy. This suggests that schizophrenics have a traditional role to perform in human culture, and that it has become a problem only because we have robbed schizophrenics of their jobs. > > (big snip) (my bolding) I’d question the “most”. (i’m sure “some”) I’d question anthropologists diagnosing mental illness. I’d question anyone diagnosing people whom we (mostly) know only from tidbits of second-hand information and who’ve been dead for a pretty long time. Nobody stole anyone’s job, if anything the world changed and they couldn’t adapt. ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/16 "2009-07-25T01:24:53Z")
Here’s a snippet from Icke’s book: > [@](#): > > Nimrod and Semiramis (or the beings those names symbolized) were from the reptile bloodlines which also became known as Titans, the genetic streams of the reptile-possessed humans and the full blood reptilians. This race of ‘giants’ or ‘Titans’ was said to have been descendants of Noah, the baby described in the Book of Enoch (previously the Book of Noah) as being a Watcher-human hybrid with extremely white skin. The father of Nimrod in the text of Genesis was Cush, also known as bel or belus, who was the grandson of Noah and son of Ham. Cush became known as the deity, Hermes, which means son of Ham. Ham or Khem means the ‘burnt one’ and may have been connected to Sun worship. A great network of seities emerged from Babylon and its connections with Egypt. Clearly its a mix of Greek mythology, Christianity, and Insanity. > [@](#): > > I’m asking if anyone knows where HE SAYS he got the idea from. [He claims his source is called The Godhead](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke#Contact_with_the_spirit_world) and he is either Jesus or a prophet on the level of Jesus. Most, if not all, of his ideas are spiritual revelations [mixed with psychedilic drug usage.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke#Current_activities) ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/17 "2009-07-25T01:27:43Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > I’m asking if anyone knows where HE SAYS he got the idea from. He is probably just regurgitating and restating things he read in trashy conspiracy books. His shtick is just commonplace “they’re controlling us” paranoia, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/18 "2009-07-25T01:32:21Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > I’m asking if anyone knows where HE SAYS he got the idea from. Well, to be accurate, if you asked HIM, you’d have to ask how he FOUND OUT. Remember – it’s not just an idea: he really believes in this shit. **SmashTheState** – “reptilian brain” is a metaphor. You’re talking about a guy who believes literally, in a race of shape-shifting lizard people. I’d also like to see a cite for you ideas on schizophrenia. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/19 "2009-07-25T01:50:23Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Schizophrenia is not really a mental illness. Most anthropologists agree that the prophets, fakirs, saints, and shamans of times past were schizophrenic, and there is a large body of research about this fascinating condition. For example, it’s been found that schizophrenics who are allowed to listen to their “voices” without interference tend to be much higher functioning than those whose “voices” are suppressed through drugs or therapy. This suggests that schizophrenics have a traditional role to perform in human culture, and that it has become a problem only because we have robbed schizophrenics of their jobs. A good friend of my mother’s had two sons who both were schizophrenic with religious delusions. The elder son, convinced that he was the archangel Gabriel, and therefore immune to worldly diseases, regularly engaged in unprotected sex with men he met at bars. He died of AIDS about five years back. Note that his behavior started well after the transmission methods of HIV were well known. Had he been sane, odds are good he would have taken more precautions with his sex life. Shortly after he died, his younger brother also had a schizophrenic break, of almost exactly the same nature. Also believing himself to be an angel, and under the impression he could fly, he jumped off a parking structure. He was lucky enough to survive with a broken leg. Luckily, he’s on his meds now, and while he’s still falls well short of functional, he’s no longer an immediate threat to himself. Their father was also schizophrenic. Shortly after his third child was born, he killed himself by jumping off of a bridge. I’m not clear if it was a deliberate suicide, or if he’d been expecting a more dramatic result from his leap. So, pardon me if I’m not exactly sold on the idea that schizophrenia is okay, and it’s the drugs and therapy that cause all the problems. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163/20 "2009-07-25T02:07:36Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’d also like to see a cite for you ideas on schizophrenia. :dubious: Michel Foucault’s [Madness and Civilization](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madness_and_Civilization) come to mind, as does [The Birth of the Clinic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_the_Clinic) and perhaps even [Discipline and Punish](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discipline_and_Punish). You have surely heard of the concepts of neurotypicality and [neurodiversity](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurodiversity). And the related concept of “[mainstreaming](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstreaming_in_education).” To all the dilettante defenders of science, I think your efforts are misplaced. What **Smash** has suggested here is far from a fringe claim within the mental health community these days; although he may draw the boundaries a bit differently, he would have many allies in principle among more conventional practitioners. And **Miller** , while those stories are tragic, an argument could be made that a vibrant but short life is preferable to a medically-mediated, dull-affect life of torpor. Why is that so many patients seem to yearn to go off their meds (as one recently banned poster mentioned he/she was planning to do)? Doesn’t this seem to suggest that–in the experience of the only person who has experienced both–fugue might be preferable to the medicated state? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-david-icke-get-this-idea-about-reptilians/504163.md?page=2)