# Where did fears of sharia law being implemented in western countries come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2012, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730 "2012-05-03T09:56:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/41 "2012-05-04T10:49:42Z")
Well done, AQA. You came up with a reasonable, documented factual answer to the OP’s question of “why this, now? Any specific incident?”. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/42 "2012-05-04T11:09:53Z")
aq aq ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/43 "2012-05-04T11:21:35Z")
> [@grude](#): > > It appears to be a popular topic, that sharia law is going to be legislated and implemented any moment. Where on earth did this fear come from? Did it have a source, an incident? Have you studied European history? Religious persecution has a long and sordid history. We don’t want it back. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/44 "2012-05-04T12:15:51Z")
It is interesting that Gingrich is resorting to the exact irrational fears that propelled the anti-communism movement\*, as noted earlier in this thread, as well as employing a misleading meaning to _jihad_. We continue to have more to fear from those who would pretend to “defend” us than we do from our actual opponents. - The U.S.S.R. was a legitimate threat to U.S interests from 1946 onward, but the linkage of the Soviet threat to an unrealistic fear of “world wide communism” encouraged the U.S. to engage in the suppression of civil rights and the oppression of individuals in the U.S. while engaging in all manner of brutal activity outside the U.S. for nearly 50 years. In the fear of Sharia and “jihad” Gingrich and like-minded bigots are promoting the same sort of baseless fears and irrational hatreds for their own personal political gain. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/45 "2012-05-04T12:50:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > … an unrealistic fear of “world wide communism” It wasn’t unrealistic at all. See: North Korea & the attack on South Korea, Central America, Africa (especially Namibia & Angola), Vietnam, China, Western Europe (especially Italy and U.K.), Eastern Europe (thoroughly under Moscow’s thumb), Afghanistan, Nepal… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/46 "2012-05-04T12:57:41Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Conservatives are extraordinarily alert and concerned/opposed to “theocracy” in the US. [Bender] Oh, wait, you were serious? Let me laugh even harder! [/Bender] While I appreciate AQA’s post, it does not really answer the question of why this is politically actionable. Al Qaeda claims they want to overthrow our government with a caliphate. This is like my 4 year old kid saying he wants to move to England. I don’t need to do anything about it, like lock up his passport. I say “that’s nice” and move on. These laws restricting Sharia are useless nonsense. Even if you think that a caliphate is coming, some Oklahoma law is going to be the bulwark that prevents our doom? I suppose they could say “Well, we WERE going to overthrow your government and install our own theocracy, but you guys have outlawed it already, so I guess we’ll do Canada instead.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/47 "2012-05-04T13:30:18Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > It wasn’t unrealistic at all. See: North Korea & the attack on South Korea, Central America, Africa (especially Namibia & Angola), Vietnam, China, Western Europe (especially Italy and U.K.), Eastern Europe (thoroughly under Moscow’s thumb), Afghanistan, Nepal… Rather a far cry from the entire world going commie and just the poor US holding out, though. Anyway, it’s not as though there was ever a real chance of the UK becoming a communist state. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/48 "2012-05-04T13:40:43Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > It wasn’t unrealistic at all. See: North Korea & the attack on South Korea, Central America, Africa (especially Namibia & Angola), Vietnam, China, Western Europe (especially Italy and U.K.), Eastern Europe (thoroughly under Moscow’s thumb), Afghanistan, Nepal… Central America was in large part a reaction to US policies. Sort of like stretching a rubber band too far… ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/49 "2012-05-04T14:07:57Z")
> [@grude](#): > > It appears to be a popular topic, that sharia law is going to be legislated and implemented any moment. Where on earth did this fear come from? Did it have a source, an incident? For those who are interested in codifying faith in law, it suddenly becomes necessary to specify which particular faith. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/50 "2012-05-04T14:15:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, it is very factual. The very fact that the legislatures of nearly half the states have gone out of their way to introduce (occasionally passing) laws prohibiting anything resembling the use of Sharia while there has never been any similar movement to prohibit Catholic marriage tribunals or Jewish Bet Din demonstrates that fact. A dodge that they were afraid of “courts” not legislatures fails on the point that it has never been an issue in courts, except when the legislative acts have been challenged for trying to make laws concerning the establishment of religion. Call it a “dodge” if you wish but it takes an extra extra extra stupid right-winger to think that your state legislature might soon legislate Sharia law. To think that one person with a robe might judge based on it… not so much. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/51 "2012-05-04T14:50:57Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > To think that one person with a robe might judge based on it… not so much. 😕 Muslim judges are **rare** in this country, and no other conceivably would be influenced by Sharia except at all parties’ request. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/52 "2012-05-04T16:20:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Anyway, it’s not as though there was ever a real chance of the UK becoming a communist state. It came quite close. > [@Nava](#): > > Central America was in large part a reaction to US policies. Sort of like stretching a rubber band too far… Except, of course that US policies were in response to Soviet aggression and subversion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/53 "2012-05-04T16:29:03Z")
Its interesting to me how the word “jihad” so closely resembles “struggle”. It can mean, and does when used in the context, the sort of forced conversion by conquest that popular ignorance has fixed upon. But not necessarily. “Struggle” is a word near and dear to hearts of old-timey Marxist lefties, when they wore a collective onion on their proletariat belt, as in “The struggle of class against class is a political struggle.” It was also commonly used in more direct and personal ways, as in “argument”. A group of Marxists arguing an arcane point of Marxist theory were often (self-described) as engaging in a “struggle”. Typically, it was used by one side of the argument or the other as an inference about the opposing view, that one was engaged in a “struggle” with bourgeois elements seeking to dampen the solidarity of the revolutionary cadres blah blah blah. It was also used, though less frequently, as a personal reference, an internal “struggle” to reach to correct political line. Same with"jihad". It can mean, and does mean, the sort of theocratic force it is usually defined as. But it also means an internal “struggle” to find the true path to Allah. One is engaged in “jihad” as one contemplates one’s failings as a Muslim, as one “struggles” to overcome doubt and complacency. This is fairly interesting, which is why I dragged you along on this diversion. The worry about judges ruling by Sharia law in American courts, by comparison, isn’t interesting. Unless “silly” means the same thing as “interesting”. And sometimes it does! Just not this time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/54 "2012-05-04T16:59:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Its interesting to me how the word “jihad” so closely resembles “struggle”. It can mean, and does when used in the context, the sort of forced conversion by conquest that popular ignorance has fixed upon. But not necessarily. > > “Struggle” is a word near and dear to hearts of old-timey Marxist lefties, when they wore a collective onion on their proletariat belt, as in “The struggle of class against class is a political struggle.” It was also commonly used in more direct and personal ways, as in “argument”. A group of Marxists arguing an arcane point of Marxist theory were often (self-described) as engaging in a “struggle”. Typically, it was used by one side of the argument or the other as an inference about the opposing view, that one was engaged in a “struggle” with bourgeois elements seeking to dampen the solidarity of the revolutionary cadres blah blah blah. It was also used, though less frequently, as a personal reference, an internal “struggle” to reach to correct political line. > > Same with"jihad". It can mean, and does mean, the sort of theocratic force it is usually defined as. But it also means an internal “struggle” to find the true path to Allah. One is engaged in “jihad” as one contemplates one’s failings as a Muslim, as one “struggles” to overcome doubt and complacency. > > This is fairly interesting, which is why I dragged you along on this diversion. The worry about judges ruling by Sharia law in American courts, by comparison, isn’t interesting. Unless “silly” means the same thing as “interesting”. And sometimes it does! Just not this time. Nitpick: Actually, “struggle” was always a sexual euphemism and Marxism was always a Libertine cult. I dunno how those horny Marxists ever got a reputation for being **political** or some shit. As for “jihad,” I think it has something to do with pretty-boys, you know the Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/55 "2012-05-04T21:45:51Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > It came quite close. > > Except, of course that US policies were in response to Soviet aggression and subversion. On the contrary. The United States supported every right-wing tyrant in Latin America from the moment of those countries’ independence(s), with economic and political consequences we still see today. Revolts against US imperialism during the Cold War were not that different in origin from those that happened before or after the Cold War. The same is true around the world, and it isn’t necessarily even a right-left issue, as the fear in Washington has always been a fear of independent national and political development. Besides, even if all of your red-baiting examples were valid (and they are not), the best way to fight the cold war would be to not fight it at all. Imperial expansion hurts one’s economy and leads to collapse. It’s a fools’ game, as the British economist Hobson discovered and wrote in his book, Empire, in 1900. Incidentally, who won the Cold War? In 1989, who was better off: Central American (or Haitian, etc.) killing fields run by mass-murderous US-trained death squads, or police states in Eastern Europe under the Soviet boot? Communism was a disaster, but neoliberal capitalism was/is even worse. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/56 "2012-05-04T21:51:25Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Call it a “dodge” if you wish but it takes an extra extra extra stupid right-winger to think that your state legislature might soon legislate Sharia law. > > To think that one person with a robe might judge based on it… not so much. Are you saying the real fear driving all this is a muslim judge letting his religious leanings affect his work? Isn’t there a mechanism in place to deal with nutty judges? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/57 "2012-05-04T22:15:16Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > On the contrary. I see Communist revisionists are still hard at work. I think you should try talking to people who lived under Soviet oppression. Jackboots are jackboots, no matter who wears them, but the Western democracies were far better off than the so-called ‘Democratic Republics’ of Eastern Europe and elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/58 "2012-05-04T22:29:56Z")
The democracies were, yes. If you are willing to define Pinochet’s Chile or Nicaragua under Somoza to be “democracies”, thinks get a bit murkier. How do you say “jackboot” in Spanish? “Gringo”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/59 "2012-05-05T00:09:58Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Jackboots are jackboots, no matter who wears them, _\_ Which is of course a central part of the criticism of American Cold War behavior. Being imprisoned, raped, tortured and murdered in the name of God and Capitalism by an American puppet dictator was just as bad as suffering the same fate in the name of Communism under a Soviet puppet dictator. And we actively encouraged that sort of tyranny and abuse. Outside of their borders there was little moral difference between the behavior of America and the Soviet Union; both were monstrously evil. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730/60 "2012-05-05T00:30:07Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > As fact lovers all, lets stress that "It appears to be a popular topic, that sharia law is going to be **legislated and implemented any moment**. " is indeed not particularly factual. Thank you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-fears-of-sharia-law-being-implemented-in-western-countries-come-from/620730.md?page=4)