# Where did Judaism begin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2015, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289 "2015-04-10T03:20:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/21 "2015-04-10T20:41:11Z")
> [@jezzaOZ](#): > > You don’t mention the Moabites who seem to have been as close to the Hebrews as the Edomites. Sort of kissing cousins. They were on the North side of the Edomites, while the Israelites were on the South (somewhere), so while the Moabites mattered once the Israelites started to move North, there’s (currently) no reason to think that they are a potential source of the Israelites (so far as I am aware). > [@](#): > > Also, what precisely was the difference between an Arab and a Canaanite say around 3000 years ago? I believe that the pantheon switches. There was a central, supreme god (Allah) and he had three daughters. Those four seem to form the center of the Arabic pantheon. Whereas in the Canaanite religions, there’s a wider family tree of gods, mostly focused on the sons of El, and his consort, Asherah. But I’ll admit that this isn’t a question that I’ve investigated deeply, so I say this without much confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/22 "2015-04-10T22:54:26Z")
Perhaps it’s a case of ‘when and where was Judaism defined?’. The foundation myth was assembled and edited around 700 BC in Jerusalem. Crane ---
**Author:** ![jezzaOZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9a28c/32.png) [@jezzaOZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jezzaOZ)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/23 "2015-04-10T22:59:13Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Perhaps it’s a case of ‘when and where was Judaism defined?’. > > The foundation myth was assembled and edited around 700 BC in Jerusalem. > > Crane Given that The Kingdom of Israel had flourished and died before then was it actually Jewish? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/24 "2015-04-10T23:20:12Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > One suggestion I have read is that the traditions recall the ending of Egytian rule in Canaan. It certainly has a “post colonial vibe” to it. True, it’s possible that Exodus is referring to a political independence movement that was rewritten to involve a physical journey. As an analogy, imagine if someone in the far future were to write the story of US independence as a story of how George Washington, Patrick Henry et al. and their followers were slaves in England who fought their way to the sea where they built the Mayflower and sailed to the Promised Land, which of course is centered around California, dude! ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/25 "2015-04-10T23:42:07Z")
jezzaOZ, Good point. Israel was a very different culture from Judah. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/26 "2015-04-11T02:12:06Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Speculation that there may have been some politics behind the formation of the Old Testament aside, archaeology would seem to show that monotheism really came into the kingdom of Israel as the most powerful nearby nation, Assyria, came to be Zoroastrian. And when Assyria collapsed, a large number of educated bureaucrats and nobles moved South into Israel. Sorry…this has just been sticking in my craw. Assyria never came to be Zoroastrian. Zoroastrianism is a Persian religion that didn’t start until after the Assyrian Empire was gone and didn’t really become important until the Achaemenids. Neither the old Assyrian empire or the neo-Assyrian empire were monotheistic or dualist. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/27 "2015-04-12T05:25:08Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Sorry…this has just been sticking in my craw. Assyria never came to be Zoroastrian. Zoroastrianism is a Persian religion that didn’t start until after the Assyrian Empire was gone and didn’t really become important until the Achaemenids. Neither the old Assyrian empire or the neo-Assyrian empire were monotheistic or dualist. You are correct. I had forgotten the specifics and my quick attempt to skim the Wikipedia got me the wrong answer. My intent was to reference the [Babylonian Captivity](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity). To summarize: Assyria controlled most of the territory that we would consider Israel today, around the late 7th century. Assyria and Babylon started duking it out, and at the end of it, Babylon won and took a bunch of the nobles from Assyria (which includes the Jews) back to Babylon. Following this, Babylon and Egypt started duking it out, with Israel basically serving as their war ground, since it was in the middle. Again, Babylon won, though some number of Jews went to live in Egypt. Following _that_, the Persians (i.e., the Achaemenid Empire) took over Babylon (taking Israel with it). The Persians were Zoroastrians and, under them, the nobility of the Jews was [released from Babylon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_to_Zion), to go back and reconstruct Israel as a place for the Jews. When they did so, they established a single state (where, formerly, they had been divided into two major kingdoms) and, for the first time, seemed to be advocating monotheism. [Though, the ones in Egypt seem to have continued to be polytheistic.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantine_papyri) Granted, it does seem like the overall canon of deities had largely shrunk. Yahweh had overtaken El and taken his wife, so the move to monotheism was probably not all that difficult (though it probably depended on the tribe). ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/28 "2015-04-12T17:00:45Z")
The Omride dynasty had declined as Judah ascended. Josiah invaded and annexed the north, which he referred to as Israel. Josiah championed the Yahweh cult and established the temple in Jerusalem as the center for worship. He and subsequent rulers edited the texts and began the practices that became Judaism. So, around 700 BC and Jerusalem are reasonable for date and place. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/29 "2015-04-12T20:25:03Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The Omride dynasty had declined as Judah ascended. Josiah invaded and annexed the north, which he referred to as Israel. Josiah championed the Yahweh cult and established the temple in Jerusalem as the center for worship. He and subsequent rulers edited the texts and began the practices that became Judaism. > > So, around 700 BC and Jerusalem are reasonable for date and place. > > Crane Around 500 BC. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/30 "2015-04-13T01:15:00Z")
There are a remarkable number of people in this thread who somehow have gotten the idea that _El_ and _Yahweh_ are two different beings. In fact, they’re two different names for God. The Bible gives somewhere around 90-100 different names for God, with _El_ and _Yahweh_ probably being the most common. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/31 "2015-04-13T01:49:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [That’s pretty much it.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed) There never was an Exodus from Egypt, there never was a united Davidic-Solomonic kingdom of Israel-Judah, and most of the OT appears to have been the work of Israelite priests who found refuge in Judah after the Assyrian conquest of Israel. Finklestein and Silberman are hardly the final word in Biblical archaeology. They have a nasty habit of ignoring evidence contrary to their minimalist theories, and declaring as proven pet theories of theirs for which there is no positive evidence. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/32 "2015-04-13T02:04:29Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > There are a remarkable number of people in this thread who somehow have gotten the idea that _El_ and _Yahweh_ are two different beings. In fact, they’re two different names for God. > > The Bible gives somewhere around 90-100 different names for God, with _El_ and _Yahweh_ probably being the most common. A guy with that many aliases is just too suspicious for me… ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/33 "2015-04-13T04:37:13Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Finklestein and Silberman are hardly the final word in Biblical archaeology. They have a nasty habit of ignoring evidence contrary to their minimalist theories, and declaring as proven pet theories of theirs for which there is no positive evidence. Agreed. In fact I once attended a talk at the British museum where the speaker said that the Bible Historians will declare that there is no evidence for the Exodus, while Egyptolgists usually are not so adament. Its a bit like Troy (which occurred around the same time); something probably did happen which was recalled in the resulting traditions, just not verbatim. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/34 "2015-04-13T04:59:21Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > There are a remarkable number of people in this thread who somehow have gotten the idea that _El_ and _Yahweh_ are two different beings. In fact, they’re two different names for God. That’s far from fact. Certainly, when reading the Bible as it ended up, that is what the editors intended. But the historical record does not support that. > [@](#): > > The Bible gives somewhere around 90-100 different names for God, with _El_ and _Yahweh_ probably being the most common. True, and the reason for all of the different names is because many of the things in the OT were plagiarized from earlier sources. A reference to El might literally be a reference to El, because the text was lifted from an ancient poem about El. Alternately, the word “Hadad” may have been scribbled out and replaced with “Yahweh”, or so on and so forth. [Quartz Hill School of Theology](http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm) (Not necessarily the best source, but relatively concise) Many of the best poems were ones which had no explicit mention of a particular god’s name. If it just said, “His Greatness”, “The Lord”, “The Master”, etc. then that makes it much easier to incorporate. And likely, to be fair, text that was written about Yahweh, by different people, who had their own way of referring to Him was incorporated as well. To be even more fair, it is likely that by the 6th Century BC, Yahweh had completely usurped the position of El in the pantheon. In Ugaritic poetry, [Ba’al was taking over the pantheon from El](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Cycle). In Greece, just to the North, Zeus seems to have overtaken Cronus in the pantheon and the Greeks, on hearing about the history of the Hebrews, came to the conclusion that the god they called [El was the one they called Cronus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus#El.2C_the_Phoenician_Cronus). To the East, [Ashur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashur_(god)) overtook [Enlil](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlil). To the West (though quite a bit earlier), the god [Amun](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun) was raised up and synchronized with Ra. If you delve deeper into history, you’ll find that when people talk about a particular pantheon of deities was, they’re really just referring to a particular, popular snapshot of time that (probably) is well-attested to by documentation. But the reality is that pantheons are fluid. Ashur, for example, started out as the deification of a **city** and eventually ended up as the creator of the world. But, if one is willing to accept that, then you must accept that _who a deity is varies based on fashion and political expedience_. When Greece rose in prominence, in the world, the Roman pantheon came to look a lot like Greece’s. When the Persians rose to prominence, the Jewish religion came to look a lot like the Persian. There’s almost no information about who Yahweh was, before the Bible. It seems reasonably conclusive that he had a female half. Beyond that, there is not much that can be said. And though we can show references to El and Baal at the Kuntillet Ajrut, it is always possible that the place was built for travelers from different places, with different gods. King Solomon established places of worship for Baal, but supposedly just for his wife. Ultimately, there’s no way to know what the intention was of a particular structure that we find, minus some good written text. But we can be relatively certain that the OT wasn’t above [baldfaced](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Alla_Inscription) [lies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaam), nor can we trust that the writers weren’t [complete](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilkiah) [charlatans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates). To say that Yahweh was ever subservient to El is currently not something that can be conclusively stated. Potentially, Yahweh was never part of any pantheon that included El and, as used in the Bible, “El” is just a word meaning “God”. But, that El was a separate, unrelated god at one time is completely certain. Based on the history of the Jewish people, as related by the OT, the Hebrews certainly seem to trace their roots back to a people who worshiped El in the same fashion as the Canaanites. There is tantalizing evidence that “Yahweh” was one of the sons of God, but the evidence is not strong. It’s also plausible that [Yam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_(god)) is the ancient name for Yahweh, as evinced through the name of [Abiyam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abijah_of_Judah), the great grandson of King David. Though, the poetry which is associated with Yahweh, in the Bible, generally utilizes images of weather control, thunder, and living on a mountain. These are closer to Hadad/Moloch/Chemosh than to Yam (the god of the Sea), so the link would be rather strange. (Though, if a city can become to creator of the world, having a god of the sea become a warrior god is far from impossible.) ---
**Author:** ![THE\_ELECT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9a140/32.png) [@THE\_ELECT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THE_ELECT)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/35 "2015-04-13T14:02:57Z")
All isms whether they be political systems or religious systems are mens doctrines and have nothingto do with the ONE LIVING GOD.The bible does not promote or perscribe organized religion, in fact it discourages mens doctrines.All the religions of today are not mentioned specically in the bible although MYSTERY BABYLON is a reference in the bible to all the false religions today in our world which cause great confusion in our world and the many wars in all of mans history on this world. There is no mention of the Hebews, Israelites or Jews following Judaism in the bible.However the Saducees and Pharisees did have a religion but it had no known label biblically.Judaism today is very close to the Saducees beliefs which by biblical standards was not Gods standard for mankind. Jesus came to wake mankind from its stupor and blind following of mankinds religious systems and political systems.And yet mankind continues with its false religions and political systems so they remain blind to God and his true teachings.For those who think catholicism and the other so called christian religions are sponsors of true christianity are grossley mistaken.ALL ISMS ARE THE LIES OF MANKIND MEANT TO BLIND MEN FROM THE REAL TRUTH OF GOD. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/36 "2015-04-13T15:04:08Z")
> [@THE\_ELECT](#): > > All isms whether they be political systems or religious systems are mens doctrines and have nothingto do with the ONE LIVING GOD.The bible does not promote or perscribe organized religion, in fact it discourages mens doctrines.All the religions of today are not mentioned specically in the bible although MYSTERY BABYLON is a reference in the bible to all the false religions today in our world which cause great confusion in our world and the many wars in all of mans history on this world. > There is no mention of the Hebews, Israelites or Jews following Judaism in the bible.However the Saducees and Pharisees did have a religion but it had no known label biblically.Judaism today is very close to the Saducees beliefs which by biblical standards was not Gods standard for mankind. > Jesus came to wake mankind from its stupor and blind following of mankinds religious systems and political systems.And yet mankind continues with its false religions and political systems so they > remain blind to God and his true teachings.For those who think catholicism and the other so called christian religions are sponsors of true christianity are grossley mistaken.ALL ISMS ARE THE LIES OF MANKIND MEANT TO BLIND MEN FROM THE REAL TRUTH OF GOD. You know the word “Christianism” exists, right? Only it’s considered as obsolete as, but not as offensive as “Mohammedanism”? Or are you genuinely trying to preach “True Religion” based on a linguistic quibble? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/37 "2015-04-13T17:52:14Z")
> [@THE\_ELECT](#): > > All isms whether they be political systems or religious systems are mens doctrines and have nothingto do with the ONE LIVING GOD. Does that include theism? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/38 "2015-04-13T18:19:07Z")
> [@THE\_ELECT](#): > > ALL ISMS ARE THE LIES OF MANKIND MEANT TO BLIND MEN FROM THE REAL TRUTH OF GOD. Fortunately, “archaeology” does not have an “ism” in it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/39 "2015-04-13T18:34:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Does that include theism? What about CAPITALISM? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-judaism-begin/717289/40 "2015-04-13T18:44:36Z")
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