# Where did MMR antivaxxers go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 21, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434 "2021-12-21T20:20:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/1 "2021-12-21T20:20:10Z")
This has become political even if it shouldn’t be and I hope it stays in ~~GQ~~ FQ, I want the data, if it exists. Move if you think it’s best to do this preemptively, or play nice. The politicization is generally framed as liberal/Democrat = tends to be in favor of COVID vaccines, conservative/Republican = tends to be against, either mandates or personally getting the jab itself. It’s not as cut and dry as that, but we’re going on _tendencies_ and the [data bears that out](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/20/10-facts-about-americans-and-coronavirus-vaccines/). But prior to 2021 there was still an antivax movement focused on MMR vaccines, others like TDap to a lesser extent. There was some conservative/Christian opposition, but especially there was a strong antivax movement among affluent people who identify as some form of liberal, such as [attendees in Waldorf schools](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/13/nyregion/measles-outbreak-new-york.html), and there doesn’t seem to be much correlation with politics and MMR vaccination/exemption rate. [For example in 2019 the most vaccinated was Mississippi(!) and lowest Colorado](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/68/wr/mm6841e1.htm). Note that a confound is Mississippi and 4 other states do not allow exemptions. But you see blue states with lower rates and red states with higher rates. I assume many of these people are still around, so: if they maintain blanket antivax, did their political outlook change? Are they for one vaccine and against another? All I can find is that [German Waldorfs have resistance to the COVID vaccine](https://www.thelocal.de/20211123/how-a-spiritual-movement-is-connected-to-german-vaccine-scepticism/) (so non-US data welcome), and national Waldorf schools have made noncommittal statements that they are not against vaccines but don’t advise families to go one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/2 "2021-12-21T21:36:13Z")
The most prominent anti-MMR antivaxxer (at least to my impression, as one who does not follow this foolishness) was Robert F Kennedy Jr, who has been promoting the false vaccine/autism connection for decades. He is similarly opposed to COVID-19 vaccines, and is the author of a book _The Real Anthony Fauci: Bill Gates, Big Pharma, and the Global War on Democracy and Public Health_, which should give you an idea of his views on the coronavirus. (Note: I have not read it, nor do I plan to.) So at least in this one case, it was a smooth pivot from anti-MMR to anti-mRNA. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/3 "2021-12-21T21:49:33Z")
Since we’re talking about this under Factual Questions, a link to start - > **[The Relationship Between the COVID-19 Pandemic and Vaccine Hesitancy: A...](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2021.747787/full)** > > Background: Vaccines have been contributing to eradicate or drastically reduce the incidence of common diseases. Simultaneously, vaccine hesitancy is considered among the top ten global health threats. The COVID-19 pandemic has caused a tremendous... > ## Impacts of the COVID-19 Pandemic on the Uptake of Other Vaccines > > Google searches on anti-vaccine terms have increased during the COVID-19 pandemic, with peaks precisely following the WHO’s various announcements (e.g., public health emergency of international concern and mask-wearing in public areas). Opposing some beliefs, the burden of COVID-19 has not been dissuading anti-vaccine searches ([23](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2021.747787/full#B23)). > > The COVID-19 pandemic has also changed parents’ intentions to vaccinate their children. In the group of previously hesitant parents about vaccines, 50.9% were still reluctant during the pandemic, 40.0% of them consider that vaccines are necessary, and 9.1% were uncertain ([24](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2021.747787/full#B24)). Goldman et al. ([25](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2021.747787/full#B25)) reported that parents’ intentions to vaccinate their children against influenza increased by 15.8% during the COVID-19 pandemic compared to the previous year ([25](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2021.747787/full#B25)). Which would seem to indicate a measurable increase in plans for children’s vaccinations, which is a hopeful spot, but not nearly as high as I would have liked. For a less scholarly perspective, but one that is more human, here’s the take from WebMD - > **[COVID-19 Vaccines](https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/covid-19-vaccine)** > > Vaccines are seen as one of the best ways to stop COVID-19. Learn more about the types of vaccines, including the newly approved Novavax. > Strong feelings around vaccination are nothing new. Claims that link the [measles](https://www.webmd.com/children/vaccines/measles-faq), mumps, and [rubella](https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/what-is-rubella) (MMR) vaccine to [autism](https://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/understanding-autism-basics) and opposition to measles vaccination that triggered outbreaks in California are recent examples. > > People who were against smallpox immunizations, for example, ran advertisements, wrote to newspapers, and formed anti-vaccine organizations, as seen in news clippings from the 1860s to the 1950s. > > In other words, although the furor over vaccines feels like a modern experience, disagreements throughout history reveal many similarities. IE - the more things change, the more they stay the same. They’ve always been with us, people for whom liberty is defined as the ability to say “no.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/4 "2021-12-21T21:51:07Z")
I don’t think that the MMR anti-vaxxers were ever all that numerous. They couldn’t be, because the vast majority of schools require all students to have MMR vaccines, so parents who didn’t vaccinate had to either homeschool, or (possibly, depending on state laws) seek out special anti-vax private schools. They just seemed more numerous, because they’re good at making noise in the media, and wherever they clumped (i.e., anywhere that allows and has anti-vax private schools), there were measles outbreaks that made the news. That small number of MMR anti-vaxxers are still around, and presumably most of them are also covid anti-vaxxers. But now there’s a whole slew of other covid anti-vaxxers on top of them, because opposition to covid vaccination has become a tribal identification thing. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/5 "2021-12-21T21:53:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > They couldn’t be, because the vast majority of schools require all students to have MMR vaccines, so parents who didn’t vaccinate had to either homeschool, or (possibly, depending on state laws) seek out special anti-vax private schools. or claim religious exemption. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/6 "2021-12-21T23:14:16Z")
@ParallelLines Thanks, that’s perfect. @Chronos It’s not that they’re a big percent of the population, it’s that they clustered, reducing herd immunity and increasing chances of outbreaks. One example: [29% vaccination rate](https://www.dailycal.org/2019/05/02/berkeley-rose-waldorf-school-has-29-percent-mmr-vaccination-rate-report-shows/). About 10% of kids re in private school. @kanicbird Or medical. I know someone who legitimately has had issues with vaccines because of an egg allergy. It just means you need to ask/get the data sheet. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/7 "2021-12-21T23:43:20Z")
Aren’t there non-egg formulations available, too? But a handful of students who can’t get the vaccine for medical reasons aren’t a problem, if they’re surrounded by classmates who are vaccinated. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/8 "2021-12-21T23:52:57Z")
From a quick google, the egg thing is less common now. But the point is you have to ask, not that all vaccines are off limits. These students aren’t surrounded by vaccinated classmates, but yes herd immunity works well even if a few don’t have vaccines. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2021, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/9 "2021-12-22T03:29:36Z")
Hardcore anti-MMR/antivax advocates have opposed Covid vaccination with at least equal fervor in my experience. That includes people like Sherri Tenpenny, James Lyons-Weiler and RFK Jr. plus groups and websites that promote their garbage. They haven’t forgotten their hatred of childhood vaccines, but are concentrating on Covid shots now, because that’s the hot topic and a source of potential converts. > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The politicization is generally framed as liberal/Democrat = tends to be in favor of COVID vaccines, conservative/Republican = tends to be against, either mandates or personally getting the jab itself. It’s not as cut and dry as that No, especially because most Republicans report having gotten at least one Covid shot (56% as of late Sept.), still fewer than independents (68%) and way below the reported vaccination rate of Democrats (\>90%). > **[Poll: A Majority of Republicans Say They Are Vaccinated](https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-09-29/poll-a-majority-of-republicans-say-they-are-vaccinated)** > > For the first time, vaccinated Republicans now make up the majority, but the group remains the least vaccinated of all major American subgroups, a new poll found. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2021, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/10 "2021-12-22T05:53:13Z")
I’m actually surprised the vaccination gap between Republicans and Democrats is as big as it is; I would’ve thought the numbers for Democrats were lower. Happy to be wrong about that! I represent parents in child welfare court proceedings. Most of my clients are poor, and a disproportionate number are minorities. My colleagues were just talking today about how we’ve noticed an increase in vaccine hesitancy among our clients since the pandemic. It used to be incredibly rare; I think I encountered one anti-vax parent among literally thousands over the course of several years. Now they’re popping up left and right. And it’s not just about the COVID vaccine; we’re seeing more resistance to the regular childhood vaccines as well. There have been a lot of thinkpieces published in the last year linking vaccine hesitancy among minorities to the Tuskegee study and other horror stories of medical discrimination past and present. But those accounts don’t line up with the sudden and dramatic increase I’m seeing firsthand in my job. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2021, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/11 "2021-12-22T07:48:17Z")
FWIW, the man who AFAIK started the anti-MMR-vaccination hare, Andrew Wakefield, turned up at a rally of QAnon fans, as seen in a recent TV documentary over here. ---
**Author:** ![damarp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/damarp/32/9770_2.png) [@damarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damarp)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/12 "2021-12-22T13:28:38Z")
No factual answer to this question is possible but, a rational hypothesis might be. “Maybe they are all dead.” alternately, “Maybe they all went back to their church.” ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2021, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/13 "2021-12-22T16:31:49Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Or medical. I know someone who legitimately has had issues with vaccines because of an egg allergy. It just means you need to ask/get the data sheet. I just wanted to mention that that is a good reason for the RNA vaccines–they do not use eggs in their preparation. They are now investigating other RNA vaccines, for that reason (among others). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2021, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/14 "2021-12-22T16:46:34Z")
Marin County, which was a hotbed of anti MMR vaccine sentiment, is 97% fully Covid vaccinated and 5% partial for white people. Hispanics and Asians are even better, Blacks are a bit worse but still high. > [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t think that the MMR anti-vaxxers were ever all that numerous. They couldn’t be, because the vast majority of schools require all students to have MMR vaccines, so parents who didn’t vaccinate had to either homeschool, or (possibly, depending on state laws) seek out special anti-vax private schools. Not true in California before the Disneyland outbreak. Then it was possible to get an exemption because the parents were averse to vaccinating their kids, which was pretty easy to do. After that they did away with that exemption and the religious exemption, and are cracking down on doctors who write an unreasonable amount of medical exemptions. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2021, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/15 "2021-12-22T21:03:31Z")
ETA: Ah, Voyager already covered Marin. Never mind 🙂. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2021, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/16 "2021-12-22T21:47:50Z")
Credit where it’s due - Marin County (as of 2019) had 94.5% of kindergartners up to date on all vaccinations, half a percentage point below the state average.\* That’s still a bit lower than the necessary level for optimal herd immunity, but a considerable improvement, thanks in large measure to passage of the state law cracking down on dubious vaccine exemptions. \*haven’t seen pandemic-era figures, which likely are not as good. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/17 "2021-12-23T19:42:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Marin County, which was a hotbed of anti MMR vaccine sentiment, is 97% fully Covid vaccinated and 5% partial for white people. Hispanics and Asians are even better, Blacks are a bit worse but still high. Oops, that should be 87% and 5%. We’re good about vaxxing here, but not that good. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-mmr-antivaxxers-go/956434/18 "2021-12-23T22:03:41Z")
Ah, OK, I was wondering about that. The closest I could get to making sense of it was “97% overall, among all races, but whites were 5% partial”. 87 and 5 makes much more sense.