# Where did Poptimism come from? Is there a precedent for it? Why has it exploded? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 9, 2007, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118 "2007-07-09T23:24:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![alreadymichigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@alreadymichigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alreadymichigan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/21 "2007-07-10T18:43:28Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] No, that’s just an assumption you’re making. Do I really have to explain why I think Ashlee Simpson is something of a fake commodity as opposed to a skilled musician? [/quote] Well, you didn’t explain, so I had to make assumptions. I don’t really understand how a person can be “fake.” Why is being a “fake commodity” opposed to being a “skilled musician”? > [@](#): > > In music-making? No particular reason, I guess. I said nothing negative about pop music or studio craft, and I already explained that. Well, if there’s no particular reason for musicianship to be a standard of evaluation, then why use it to evaluate a product of studio craft? > [@](#): > > Again, this is pretty obvious. I know, I’m not meaning to be controversial. Why is what I’m saying so contentious? [QUOTE=Ogre] Lord have mercy. That Li’l Wayne song was the worst piece of rapping I’ve seen since about 1980. It was repetitive, simplistic, utterly unimaginative, and _good God_, you consider stringing together three or four rhyming words in a couple of lines awe-inspiring? I’ve heard Del Tha Funky Homosapien do better than that as a matter of course. It’s just not that difficult or rare. [/quote] I think it’s awe inspiring the way it works in that song. What did you find repetitive about it? Was it the “just my Daddy” bits? Cause that’s kind of the point. What was simplistic and unimaginative about it? I like Del too, but I think what Weezy’s doing right now is better. > [@](#): > > Seriously, from my perspective, there’s nothing about your critique that’s the least bit critical. I didn’t know I’d offered a critique, critical or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/22 "2007-07-10T18:59:24Z")
[QUOTE=alreadymichigan] Why is being a “fake commodity” opposed to being a “skilled musician”? [/QUOTE] It’s not necessarily, it’s just that if you’re the former, it’s easier to be popular if you are not also the latter. Whereas if you don’t try to appeal to people through other than your musicianship it’s harder to become popular unless you’re really really good, and even then it’s no guarantee. ---
**Author:** ![alreadymichigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@alreadymichigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alreadymichigan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/23 "2007-07-10T19:06:53Z")
Those are all awfully big leaps, **Ludovic**. However, I’m still not sure what makes an artist a “fake commodity.” Isn’t selling your work commodifying it? Does that mean there are “real” commodities? How do you tell the difference between a fake commodity and a real commodity? Who are these artists who only appeal to others through their musicianship and don’t commodify their work? How do they eat? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/24 "2007-07-10T19:18:12Z")
[QUOTE=alreadymichigan] Well, you didn’t explain, so I had to make assumptions. [/quote] The thing to do in that case is _ask_, not make assumptions. But this is getting ridiculous. > [@](#): > > I don’t really understand how a person can be “fake.” I was discussing Simpson as an entertainer, not as a human being. Given that she is more of a pop star-entertainer type than a musician and had that notable lip-synching incident, I don’t think I have to explain this side comment any further. > [@](#): > > Why is being a “fake commodity” opposed to being a “skilled musician”? If you mean “why is it bad,” I didn’t say it is. I dislike it, but I understand that a lot of people like to listen to her style of music. If you mean “what is being a fake commodity,” > [@](#): > > Well, if there’s no particular reason for musicianship to be a standard of evaluation, then why use it to evaluate a product of studio craft? You sound like you want to set rules: ‘if you’re reviewing a record of type X, comments about type Y are never relevant.’ Maybe they’re relevant and maybe they’re not- what is the critic’s argument? ---
**Author:** ![alreadymichigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@alreadymichigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alreadymichigan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/25 "2007-07-10T20:03:25Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] The thing to do in that case is _ask_, not make assumptions. But this is getting ridiculous. [/quote] I did. “What does that mean?” I said. “I think’s pretty clear,” you said. Apparently it wasn’t. > [@](#): > > I was discussing Simpson as an entertainer, not as a human being. Given that she is more of a pop star-entertainer type than a musician and had that notable lip-synching incident, I don’t think I have to explain this side comment any further. We’re still encountering difficulties. If she’s an entertainer, how can she be a fake one? Does she not genuinely entertain? > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Why is being a “fake commodity” opposed to being a “skilled musician”? > > If you mean “why is it bad,” I didn’t say it is. I dislike it, but I understand that a lot of people like to listen to her style of music. If you mean “what is being a fake commodity,” I didn’t mean “why is it bad,” I meant, why are the two “opposed”? You set them up as opposite categories, when there is no reason why they should be. And you’re offering very creative word definitions if you don’t mean “fake” to be bad. > [@](#): > > You sound like you want to set rules: ‘if you’re reviewing a record of type X, comments about type Y are never relevant.’ Maybe they’re relevant and maybe they’re not- what is the critic’s argument? Not at all. But there are some things that don’t make sense and evaluating things by criteria that has nothing to do with them doesn’t make sense. If a critic is doing that, they should probably have a good reason why. You said right at the beginning of this thread that you think it’s a cop out to judge music by the standards of its own genre. Why on earth then would you judge music by the standards of a completely different genre? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/26 "2007-07-11T19:00:48Z")
[QUOTE=alreadymichigan] Those are all awfully big leaps, **Ludovic**. However, I’m still not sure what makes an artist a “fake commodity.” Isn’t selling your work commodifying it? [/quote] If you alter your message to fit your audience, then yes, you’re a “fake commodity” to the extent of the alteration, some are big, some aren’t. If you simply advertise, then no. Which of course doesn’t mean that some artists aren’t good _and_ fake, but would you not agree that if you make music that doesn’t really speak to anything real because you know it has more of a chance to be popular, it will have more of a chance to be popular? > [@](#): > > How do you tell the difference between a fake commodity and a real commodity? Well, I never claimed to be psychic, but as a general rule, vapid and quotidian lyrics are a start. > [@](#): > > Who are these artists who only appeal to others through their musicianship and don’t commodify their work? How do they eat? The quote was “fake commodity”, not “commodity”. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/27 "2007-07-11T19:19:40Z")
I thought of another dividing line between real and fake: protesting too much that you’re “real”. The earliest example I can think of is the Monkees (“we’re the young generation, and we’ve got something to say”,) but Fall Out Boy does this as well, and I like them, so like I said before, just because something makes you more fake doesn’t mean you’re necessarily _bad_, it’s just a sloppier way to get recognition which means that both good and bad artists can be successful doing it. Which doesn’t mean I have to like every two-bit rapper who claims to really have been born in the hood and have parents hating his guts. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/28 "2007-07-11T19:37:44Z")
[QUOTE=alreadymichigan] If she’s an entertainer, how can she be a fake one? [/quote] My wording here has been imprecise, although I’m also getting very tired of this tangent. “Fake” doesn’t really apply to entertainers because nobody seems to care about authenticity. It does apply to musicians, and if you disagree, consider the reaction when her lip synching thing happened. People do expect musicians to have some authenticity, and when somebody gets outed for pretending to have a skill they don’t have - like singing - fans are upset. > [@](#): > > I didn’t mean “why is it bad,” I meant, why are the two “opposed”? You set them up as opposite categories, when there is no reason why they should be. There’s always a degree of image creation or phoniness in presenting one’s artwork to the public, but aside from that, I do think that going the lip syching/TV/movie/reality show star route is an alternative to actual musicianship in her case. > [@](#): > > But there are some things that don’t make sense and evaluating things by criteria that has nothing to do with them doesn’t make sense. This sounds good in practice, in reality, it means nothing. > [@](#): > > Why on earth then would you judge music by the standards of a completely different genre? We’ve said repeatedly here that criticism involves making an argument. How do you know what’s relevant and what isn’t if you don’t know what the argument is? You listen to an argument and then judge the relevance of its components; you can’t expect to get anywhere by judging what’s relevant in advance. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/29 "2007-07-11T19:41:24Z")
[QUOTE=alreadymichigan] Why on earth then would you judge music by the standards of a completely different genre? [/QUOTE] this is what you keep missing. he’s not suggesting that you apply the criterion of different genres. the idea is that there is universal criteria that can be applied, sort of an _ars musica_, to any muscial endeavor. some criteria might not be applicable (for example, there is no need to examine the lyrics of an instrumental piece), but overall there is some sort of unifed theory of what has artistic merit – people argue over what that is and sometimes suggest that the concept should be abandonded, but it cannot be abandoned – abandoning simply broadens it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/30 "2007-07-11T21:35:37Z")
I think Poptimisim is a product of another, not-entirely-unknown influence on music criticism: Payola. The big music corporations are **dying**! Music has escapped them, & fled to the Web. The boring crap they churn out must be **promoted** …heavily. So, they are twisting arms & greasing palms like never before–to make their sorry shit look like caviar. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/31 "2007-07-11T23:03:18Z")
I listen to as wide a variety of music as anyone I’ve ever met, and I’ve met a lot artists/professionals/writers in the music/recording/radio industry. This is because, so my theory goes, that I try to hear each new recording I hear with a totally open mind, and judge it on its own merits; I work very hard not to have different standards or expectations for different genres or artists. So, yes, I love Scott Walker, but I also love Lil Kim; the Carpenters and Foetus are both on my d.i.d. list. Maybe it’s just craven self-congratulation, but the OP’s description of current music criticism sounds, to me, like my way of thinking about music has caught on among critics. To which I say, awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/32 "2007-07-11T23:23:15Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor] I think Poptimisim is a product of another, not-entirely-unknown influence on music criticism: Payola. The big music corporations are **dying**! Music has escapped them, & fled to the Web. The boring crap they churn out must be **promoted** …heavily. So, they are twisting arms & greasing palms like never before–to make their sorry shit look like caviar. [/QUOTE] I was waiting for someone to make the “All pop music is crap and it’s only on the radio because someone paid for it” argument. It took much longer than I thought. EDITED TO ADD: [QUOTE=lissener] Maybe it’s just craven self-congratulation, but the OP’s description of current music criticism sounds, to me, like my way of thinking about music has caught on among critics. To which I say, awesome. [/QUOTE] I agree with this wholeheartedly. ---
**Author:** ![jlrepka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/22d042/32.png) [@jlrepka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlrepka)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/33 "2007-07-12T03:26:00Z")
So I think I have this straight now: McDonald’s is the world’s premier cuisine. Thomas Kincade is the world’s greatest living painter. Michael Bay is our greatest filmmaker. Budweiser is the best beer, and Gallo is the finest wine. I’m being facetious, of course. I like pop music. But great art is that which challenges us. Art that, as the great philosopher Costanza said, “…you don’t have to think about!” will be popular. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/34 "2007-07-12T04:04:49Z")
[QUOTE=jlrepka] So I think I have this straight now: McDonald’s is the world’s premier cuisine. Thomas Kincade is the world’s greatest living painter. Michael Bay is our greatest filmmaker. Budweiser is the best beer, and Gallo is the finest wine. I’m being facetious, of course. I like pop music. But great art is that which challenges us. Art that, as the great philosopher Costanza said, “…you don’t have to think about!” will be popular. [/QUOTE] Your exercise in false dichotomies above seems to imply that there isn’t room for both. To which I say, politely, bullshit. Most of you know me as a movie geek. Some of you think of me as a movie snob, because my lifetime topten includes mostly old movies; a few silents, a lot of foreign. But this is not because I pre-emptively like “better” movies; it’s because, as a movie geek, I watch around 600 movies a year. So, the sample that I draw from being so comparatively large, and my effort to watch them with an open mind–no particular genre or period gets extra points, going in–my personal favorites are necessarily not going to be limited to the Megaplex blockbusters of the last 20 or so years. Confusingly put, but my point being that the apparent esotericness of my lifelist is purely a function of _quantity_, not quality; I see mostly bad _movies_. (I hope that makes sense.) But non-“art” films can be just as valuable an experience as the snobs’ favorites. (Again, I invoke _Showgirls_.) The two most enjoyable movies I’ve watched in the last couple weeks are \*Shooter \*and the 1922 silent version of _Robin Hood_. See, you \*can \*have both. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2007, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118/35 "2007-07-12T13:48:09Z")
[QUOTE=whole bean] he’s not suggesting that you apply the criterion of different genres. the idea is that there is universal criteria that can be applied, sort of an _ars musica_, to any muscial endeavor. some criteria might not be applicable (for example, there is no need to examine the lyrics of an instrumental piece), but overall there is some sort of unifed theory of what has artistic merit – people argue over what that is and sometimes suggest that the concept should be abandonded, but it cannot be abandoned – abandoning simply broadens it. [/QUOTE] That’s not totally wrong. Maybe my point is a little too finely sliced: I don’t believe in universal criteria or in purely relative criteria. There are good points and bad points to both views. I think “poptimism” leans more toward the relative side of things, and when I read a review that says something like “this record is fun and delivers what it should,” I find myself thinking “okay, but what is the meaning of what it delivers?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-poptimism-come-from-is-there-a-precedent-for-it-why-has-it-exploded/411118.md?page=1)