# Where did the authors of Genesis think the Garden of Eden was located? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 21, 2022, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401 "2022-03-21T01:22:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/41 "2022-03-21T18:45:38Z")
If people living in biblical times thought the Bible was true it’s because they were blissfully ignorant, or brainwashed. If audiences of Richard III thought it was true, it’s because they were ignorant. It was a fictitious story based on a true person. The Bible has lots of real people and real places in it, but that doesn’t mean any of the stories are even remotely true, even if the authors at the time thought they were. Thinking something is true and something actually being true can be very different things. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/42 "2022-03-21T18:58:32Z")
I’ve heard some people say they are the same rivers today that were mentioned in the Bible, that is, there aren’t two other Tigris and Euphrates rivers that they could have been referring to instead. I tend to believe that since these are major rivers that a lot of people living in the Middle East would have at least heard of. If the authors didn’t know about the true Tigris and Euphrates I would be surprised, and if you’re going to make up the name of two rivers they could have come up with something completely different like they did for Pishon and Gihon which are likely not real rivers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/43 "2022-03-21T19:11:26Z")
Well, the same rivers. That “Euphrates” is the Greek word, the Assyrians called it Purattu (Great Rver), the ancient Hebrew word was Perath. Tigris is the Greek name as it was a savage river. The Assyrians called it “I-di-ik-lat” which gave the Hebrew Hiddekal. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/44 "2022-03-21T19:15:48Z")
Ah, thank you. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/45 "2022-03-21T19:24:23Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I can tell you where Jerusalem is. I can tell you where Babylon was. I can tell you where to find Alexandria, Damascus, Athens, and Rome. In the context of this specific question, I can show you both the Tigris and the Euphrates, which are both mentioned in relation to Eden. [This wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_names_for_biblical_place_names) has a couple hundred more examples of real places named in the Bible. Just because real place names are mentioned in a fiction work doesn’t make the work any more true. Historical fiction typically uses this gimmick. According to author Robert Lawson, Benjamin Franklin lived in Philadelphia in colonial times. In _Ben and Me,_ he had a talking mouse named Amos who invented the Franklin stove and discovered electricity. The fact that Franklin was a real person who lived in colonial times in Philadelphia doesn’t prove that Amos could talk or invent anything. ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/46 "2022-03-21T19:32:21Z")
And you don’t even have to leave the United States to go there… > **[Legend of the Garden of Eden - Bristol, Florida](https://www.exploresouthernhistory.com/apalachicolabluffs2.html)** > > Was the Garden of Eden really in Liberty County, Florida? At least one researcher thought so and based his theory on the unique geography and rare plants of the Apalachicola Bluffs & Ravines area near Bristol, Florida. OK - we now return you to more serious Bible history. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/47 "2022-03-21T19:35:23Z")
> [@wikipedia](#): > > The location of Eden is described in the Book of Genesis as the source of four tributaries. I think it was Pittsburg. Why this bias towards the middle east? I think it was right here in God’s own USA! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/48 "2022-03-21T19:39:39Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Just because real place names are mentioned in a fiction work doesn’t make the work any more true. Historical fiction typically uses this gimmick. You’re moving the goal posts. You said it was pointless to ask where to find locations mentioned in a work of fiction. I pointed out that the Bible is full of real-world locations. That has nothing to do with any argument about “making the work more true.” ---
**Author:** ![c\_carol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@c\_carol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c_carol)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/49 "2022-03-21T19:44:08Z")
@Musicat, I’m not sure who you think you’re arguing against here. Nobody here is claiming anything about Eden being real. If it’s 100% fictional, it could still be fictionally in an identifiable real location, and some people might find that interesting, even if you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/50 "2022-03-21T19:57:15Z")
Asking about the authors of Genesis is by itself not addressing the question well either. In the Christian Bible, Genesis is copied in its entirety from the Torah. Current bible scholars attribute Genesis to at least three different sources over time. The exact manner in which it came to be remains open to debate. But what is clear is that it is an assemblage of much older oral traditions, taken from at least three different sources, over a period of centuries. Moreover, the time of insertion of the stories into the the texts has no correlation with when the stories are set. There are two separate Garden of Eden stories, long with many other duplication of stories - including the creation. There seems to be some evidence that the editing together of the narrative has been done to serve socio-political ends. A big influence on the beliefs came during the Babylonian exile, where Judaism acquired a lot of its more religious rather than historical roots. The Garden of Eden is probably one of these stories, as Mesopotamian culture contains a very similar story. The influence of Zoroastrianism on the Abrahamic religions is deep. Overall, the authors of Genesis thought that the Garden of Eden was located wherever the Mesopotamian myth placed it, which is consistent with it being in Mesopotamia. Not that they were necessarily aware that it was a Mesopotamian myth by the time they wrote it down. They weren’t making stuff up at this point. They were codifying existing tradition. This video makes interesting watching about the current ideas about the origins of Genesis. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/NY-l0X7yGY0/maxresdefault.jpg "Who Wrote the Bible? Episode 1: The Torah") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY-l0X7yGY0) ---
**Author:** ![ArtBeforeScience](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@ArtBeforeScience](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArtBeforeScience)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/51 "2022-03-21T20:01:06Z")
Unsupported speculation: Mythically speaking, I think the Garden of Eden represented a collective memory of a time when the Middle East was lusher, which might have been the case long ago. Prehistory. Maybe humans weren’t self-aware at that time, with identity politics and such. Not necessarily innocent or gentle, but without the vocabulary for advanced scheming or recording of same. It may be that drying climate forced civilization to develop, as it was no longer possible to live off the land without labor or cooperation. The four waters are the 4 cardinal directions, still represented in some types of gardens as a representation of the cosmos with a fountain at the center. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/52 "2022-03-21T20:29:34Z")
Yeah, I don’t understand the difficulty in understanding the question. I know Harry Potter is not real, but I can tell you where the author claimed the magic entrance to the train that takes you there is located, for example (Kings Cross, between platforms 9 and 10.) It isn’t actually there, it doesn’t actually exist, but you can locate it roughly in the real world. That’s all that’s being asked here, whether the location given in Genesis can correspond to any known location, whether specifically or generally. It does not mean the garden actually existed, nor does it mean anyone who hypothesizes at the location believes of a literal Garden of Eden. For all we know, it could have been a legend of an unusually fertile land or something that got telephone gamed by oral tradition and time. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/53 "2022-03-21T20:42:05Z")
Storytelling is a global word that has many subdivisions. Mythmaking, folk tales, tall tales, fantasy, urban legends, disinformation, playwriting, movie making, fiction, stand-up comedy, shaggy dog jokes, monologues, fairy tales, songwriting, and probably dozens of others categories have been identified. They have points in common and those points have been pulled out and studied to see why stories are told, why they work, and what impressions they leave on readers, watchers, and hearers. Yet they also have unique aspects that allow us to identify and classify works. I’m not big on academic discourse, so I’ll leave it to experts to rip stuff apart. For this discussion I’m talking about intent. Instructive stories are not the same as stories purely for entertainment. Origin stories serve purposes: to indoctrinate, to educate, to lay down laws and rules and mores, to bind people together in a common tale, to glorify those bound people, to separate, even isolate them from others. That’s not how we think of fiction today; we would call that something far closer to propaganda. Propaganda is a loaded, negative term in common usage, but looking at it as a mere yet extreme specimen of how to use language to one’s advantage reveals styles and techniques that are found in other types of stories. Finding them says something revealing about the stories. That propaganda and religious tracts overlap in their bones should be obvious to any outsider, and separates them from other subcategories of storytelling, like fiction. So to me fiction is not an appropriate word for origin stories and religious myths. Thinking of them that way restricts understanding. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/54 "2022-03-21T21:00:36Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > If there were a factual answer to this question, wouldn’t it have been already answered sometime in the past 3000 or so years? It’s taking longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/55 "2022-03-21T21:10:48Z")
“Fighting ignorance since 1973 BCE.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/56 "2022-03-21T21:31:51Z")
[Moderating] > [@Musicat](#): > > Since the biblical writers were writing fiction, not history, if you can tell me where the Mountains of Mirkwood are, or where the River Running flows out of the Lonely Mountain, or where Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry is located, I can tell you where Eden was. The question is not “Where is Eden”. That is clearly unanswerable, because Eden does not exist, at least not in our world. The question is “Where did the authors of Genesis believe that Eden was”, which is answerable (even if with a bit of difficulty). Let people who are attempting to answer, attempt to answer. > [@dolphinboy](#): > > If people living in biblical times thought the Bible was true it’s because they were blissfully ignorant, or brainwashed. If audiences of Richard III thought it was true, it’s because they were ignorant. It was a fictitious story based on a true person. > > The Bible has lots of real people and real places in it, but that doesn’t mean any of the stories are even remotely true, even if the authors at the time thought they were. Thinking something is true and something actually being true can be very different things. The truth or lack thereof of the Bible is not the topic for this thread, which is in FQ. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/57 "2022-03-21T21:43:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You are thinking in modern terms. That translation is not what it seems to be , the wording is more like _10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads._ I still don’t understand what is meant. Can you clarify what you understand this to mean, in terms of the Edenic river and the 4 named rivers? How is it different to what the translation appears to mean? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/58 "2022-03-21T21:55:06Z")
I am no serious biblical scholar. I get my info from two college courses- The Bible as Literature and The Bible as History. I use the Anchor Bible and Asimov’s Guide to the Bible. Asimov is a easier read and he mostly uses the Anchor Bible as his primary source anyway. I am recounting what he said in his book, but I double checked it with sources from Google and the Anchor Bible. That is what current Biblical Scholarship says, that four rivers flowed _into_ the land known as Eden. Since there are many rivers in that precise area and many have combined, or disappeared, I have no doubt that Genesis was referring to minor but real rivers “Pison” and “Gihon”. There are dissenters, of course, but I feel this is the right answer. > **[Garden of Eden | Genesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_of_Eden#Genesis)** > > The second part of the Genesis creation narrative, Genesis 2:4–3:24, opens with YHWH-Elohim (translated here "the LORD God")\[a\] creating the first man (Adam), whom he placed in a garden that he planted "eastward in Eden": ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/59 "2022-03-21T22:28:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Asimov’s Guide to the Bible That’s over 50 years old. I wouldn’t use as a source of _current_ biblical scholarship, especially if his source was the 1956 Anchor Bible. > [@DrDeth](#): > > That is what current Biblical Scholarship says, that four rivers flowed _into_ the land known as Eden [Biblegateway.com](http://Biblegateway.com) allows you to choose from 64 versions of the Bible. I checked 20 or so at random and every single one said four rivers flow _out_ of Eden. Could you cite what version says _into_? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2022, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/60 "2022-03-21T22:50:04Z")
The Tigris and Euphrates don’t flow out of anywhere. I eamn in a vague area they do, but not one source Don’t use modern geographical conventions here. _10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads._ But if someone choose to believe Eden was somewhere up in Armenia, that is the second most argued area, and of course they could be right. 1956 is not that old when we are talking something that occurred some 4-8000 years ago. I mean, it is not like there has been any recent archaeological discoveries. But if you have some more recent scholarship to cite, sure trot it out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401.md?page=4)