# Where did the authors of Genesis think the Garden of Eden was located? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 21, 2022, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401 "2022-03-21T01:22:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/122 "2023-01-03T21:03:46Z")
When Thomas More wrote his tale of a perfect place he reached back into Greek and called it utopia, meaning “no place”. Utopia does not exist on earth: it is a metaphor, a goal, an aspiration, and most importantly a contrast to the failings of the real world. He wrote in a long tradition that stretches from the Bible to Santa’s Workshop, touching upon utopias from Plato’s Republic to Shangri-La, mythical lands like Cockaigne and Atlantis, fabulous moments like Camelot, mythical worlds like Asgard and Olympus, and comic book derivatives like Superman’s Fortress of Solitude and Batman’s Batcave. With hundreds of examples over thousands of years, individual differences can be found, with some in named places, some in named regions, and some basically over the rainbow, like Oz. Not one answer in this thread gave an answer to the OP. Nor can anyone. The writers compiled in Genesis (remember, no one person wrote Genesis) wrote in different centuries, with different traditions, different motives, and different theological understandings. The compilers cut and pasted old texts together, which is why there are two contiguous yet contradictory accounts of creation. Nothing in the accounts that were kept give a hint to the location of Eden. It was clearly meant to be a nowhere in the same way More’s utopia was a nowhere. True, if you search “Who wrote Genesis” in Google, the first page is full of Christian sites insisting it was Moses, giving Biblical evidence. If believers can say that with a straight face they can - and do - say anything about the location of Eden. Non-believers will give very different answers. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/123 "2023-01-04T15:53:03Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > So where is Santa’s workshop? That’s the point. When you make something up, like the Garden of Eden, it doesn’t matter where it is, or where they thought it was. Yes, it seems you’re still missing the point. No one disagrees (in this thread, I think) that the actual location of Eden doesn’t really matter because, well, it’s not and never was a real place. No one’s planning a trip. Some people are curious where the authors thought it was, and that specific question “matters” as much as any other message board question. If you’re not interested, no problem. But continuously parachuting into the thread to let everyone know it’s not a real place is not pointless so much as it completely misses the point. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2023, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/124 "2023-01-04T16:52:53Z")
Point taken. While I think it’s pointless to speculate about where the unknown author of a fictional story thought a specific place was, feel free to speculate. That’s your right. I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2023, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/125 "2023-01-04T21:04:18Z")
People are not ignoring the question. The exact answer to the OP’s question has been given multiple times. Once that happens, it’s no big surprise that other related issues get talked about. > [@Stratocaster](#): > > No one’s planning a trip. Seriously? I’ve already mentioned Mt. Ararat. If people believed that the writers gave an actual site, it would be trampled flat by the number of tourists over 2000 years. Nothing is louder about the writers _not_ thinking of a location than the absence of a tourist trade to Eden. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2023, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/126 "2023-01-04T22:15:52Z")
I’ve been to the Garden of Eden. It was in Hersheypark, in Hershey, PA. Food was meh. ETA: My bad - that was the Garden of Eatin’… ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/127 "2023-01-05T00:02:54Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > No one disagrees (in this thread, I think) that the actual location of Eden doesn’t really matter because, well, it’s not and never was a real place. I absolutely believe it’s a real place, but I do not believe it is accessible in modern times. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/128 "2023-01-05T00:45:00Z")
Do you think that it existed but is now unfindable because of changes in geology and ecology? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/129 "2023-01-05T01:25:23Z")
In the spiritual realm, I believe it is unfindable because of angels with a rotating flaming sword. How that manifested in the Earthly realm, I have no idea, but perhaps that is through geological and/or ecological change. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/130 "2023-01-05T02:34:53Z")
You would think that the presence of angels holding flaming swords would make the place _easier_ to find. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/131 "2023-01-05T15:14:29Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Seriously? I’ve already mentioned Mt. Ararat. If people believed that the writers gave an actual site, it would be trampled flat by the number of tourists over 2000 years. Nothing is louder about the writers _not_ thinking of a location than the absence of a tourist trade to Eden. No, I get that. There would be hordes of pilgrims if the Bible gave anything like a specific location (whether that was a reasonable interpretation or not). And a reasonable assertion that the question is essentially unanswerable is on point. My only point was “Enough with telling us that Eden isn’t a real place. If you don’t like the topic, then don’t play along.” (Apologies to @cmkeller.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/132 "2023-01-05T21:20:18Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > No, I get that. There would be hordes of pilgrims if the Bible gave anything like a specific location… But they did. Way back at the start, I showed how they said it was where the Tigris and Eurphates rivers met. ( and two other rives, that are no longer known). > **[Tigris–Euphrates river system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigris%E2%80%93Euphrates_river_system)** > > The Tigris–Euphrates river system is a large river system in Western Asia that discharges into the Persian Gulf. Its principal rivers are the Tigris and Euphrates, along with smaller tributaries. > From their sources and upper courses in the mountains of eastern Turkey, the rivers descend through valleys and gorges to the uplands of Syria and northern Iraq and then to the alluvial plain of central Iraq. Other tributaries join the Tigris from sources in the Zagros Mountains to the east. The rivers ... But that area is large, and not only that, it is either swamp or built up. There is even a town- [Al-Qurnah - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurnah) that claims it is the location of the Garden _Local folklore holds Qurnah to have been the site of the [Garden of Eden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_of_Eden) and the location of a city built by general [Seleucus Nicator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucus_I_Nicator) I.[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurnah#cite_note-3)[[4]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurnah#cite_note-4) An ancient tree is celebrated locally and shown to the tourists as the actual [Tree of Knowledge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_and_evil) of the [Bible](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible).[[5]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurnah#cite_note-5) The tree died some time ago and replacement trees were planted. The [tomb](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra%27s_Tomb) of [Ezra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra) is also described to be nearby and found further upstream on the river Tigris.[[6]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurnah#cite_note-6)[[7]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurnah#cite_note-7)_ Of course the paths of those two rivers have changed a LOT in some 6000 years, and the location where the Writers of Genesis thought the Garden is/was is likely radically different. But the idea always was that you could not go to the Garden. Thus even if we knew what those other river where, and could figure out where that spot was 6000 years ago- it wouldn’t make a difference. You literally can’t get there from here. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/133 "2023-01-05T21:47:39Z")
And even if the precise spot was known, it’s still a frickin’ swamp. > When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that’s what you’re going to get, Lad, the strongest castle in all of ~~England~~ Mesopotamia. ---
**Author:** ![Orville\_mogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/aeb1de/32.png) [@Orville\_mogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orville_mogul)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2023, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401/134 "2023-01-11T09:17:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This is slightly off topic, but Middle Earth is meant to be pre-historic Europe. While Tolkien didn’t attempt to map everything in ME one-to-one with 20th century Europe, there’s a reasonably strong argument that the Lonely Mountain is basically the Matterhorn, which Tolkien is known to have visited in his youth. On a related note, if you are ever in western Switzerland, I strongly encourage you to visit the [Vallorbe cave](https://grottesdevallorbe.ch/). The approach to the cave entrance follows the river Orbe, and when you get to the end, you will see that the river is literally emerging from a hole in the base of a cliff. And when you enter the cave, you soon find that same river running inside the cavern, which itself has high arching ceilings. It is an amazing experience and totally reminds me of the Hobbit. And speaking of Tolkienesque sights in Switzerland (or technically neighboring France), [check this out](https://www.pinterest.fr/pin/52495151890117101/). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-authors-of-genesis-think-the-garden-of-eden-was-located/961401.md?page=6)