# Where Did The Belief That 'Rape Is Not About Sex' Originate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 17, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598 "2003-12-17T19:30:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/1 "2003-12-17T19:30:44Z")
Note: I’m not looking for a debate of the merits of this particular argument (yet), I just want to know who first stated this idea and why. I’ve seen several posts on these boards that have stated that the motivation for rape has nothing to do with sex, that it’s all about power, domination, humiliation, or some other non-sexual motivation. Since this idea seems so counter-intuitive, I would think that someone would need stong supportive evidence before taking this position. Where did this idea originate, and how did it become so popular? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![gluteus\_maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f17d59/32.png) [@gluteus\_maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluteus_maximus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/2 "2003-12-17T19:37:34Z")
Oh, please! Are you really going to be so obtuse so soon after **Hydrocortisone** just got finished putting us through this same thing? What does your intuition have to do with the definition, no, the _ **reality** _ of rape? You say you don’t want a debate? Then why post a question that you know has already been answered in quite painful detail on these boards? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/3 "2003-12-17T20:13:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gluteus maximus \* > \*\*Oh, please! > > Are you really going to be so obtuse so soon after **Hydrocortisone** just got finished putting us through this same thing? > > What does your intuition have to do with the definition, no, the _ **reality** _ of rape? > > You say you don’t want a debate? Then why post a question that you know has already been answered in quite painful detail on these boards? \*\* While it is almost impossible to keep this thread from veering into GD instead of GQ (and you’re doing a good job to send it there), the OP is asking a legitimate _historical_ question. The OP does not seem to be questioning the reality of rape, merely asking about the history of the idea that rape is _primarily_ about power rather than sex. That is, that the motivation of a rapist is primarily domination, rather than achieving sexual satisfaction. While I cannot answer the question definitively myself, and don’t really want to get involved in a debate, this idea certainly first became prevalent in the 1960s and 1970s, with the rise of feminism, although it may have originated earlier. ---
**Author:** ![gluteus\_maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f17d59/32.png) [@gluteus\_maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluteus_maximus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/4 "2003-12-17T20:40:29Z")
OK, fine. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Surreal \* > \*\* > > Since this idea seems so counter-intuitive, \*\* Therefore, **Surreal’s** intuition is that rape is a valid variety of sex? It’s just, like, a different position, or style? The “historical” question seems obtuse to me. Call it intuition. There is intuition, and there is myth. Someone who’s been a member here as long as **Surreal** knows how to Google for the information requested in the OP. **Colibri** , your statement linking the origin of this “idea” (cite?) to the rise of feminism suggests belief in another myth; the myth that rape only happens to women. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/5 "2003-12-17T20:56:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gluteus maximus \* > \*\*Therefore, **Surreal’s** intuition is that rape is a valid variety of sex? It’s just, like, a different position, or style? \*\* Nothing in the OP could be construed as equating rape to a “different position.” I’ve never seen the OP’s question asked here, actually, We’ve debated the issue, but I don’t recall anyone coming up with objective evidence as to when the “Rape is not about sex” mantra became popular. I’d guess it was in the 60s, too, but I don’t actually know. I’d be curious to see a cite. Do YOU know when it was, or who popularized it? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/6 "2003-12-17T20:58:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colibri \* > **The OP [is] asking about the history of the idea that rape is _primarily_ about power rather than sex.** That’s not what I read. Bolding mine: "…several posts on these boards…have stated that the motivation for rape has **nothing** to do with sex, that it’s **all** about power, domination, humiliation, or some other non-sexual motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/7 "2003-12-17T21:04:16Z")
**Colibri** - “_The OP does not seem to be questioning the reality of rape, merely asking about the history of the idea that rape is primarily about power rather than sex. That is, that the motivation of a rapist is primarily domination, rather than achieving sexual satisfaction_” Yes, this is exactly what I am asking. I suppose the only way anyone could determine what the real motivation for rape is would be to interview a bunch of convicted rapists and ask them what drove them to do it. Does anyone know of such a study? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/8 "2003-12-17T21:07:08Z")
(Sorry, didn’t finish.) And this: “…merely asking about the history of the idea…” Doesn’t jibe with this: “Since this idea seems so counter-intuitive, I would think that someone would need stong supportive evidence before taking this position.” That last one seems to have nothing to do with the history of the idea, and everything to do with its merits. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/9 "2003-12-17T21:27:54Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by gluteus maximus \* \*\* Therefore, **Surreal’s** intuition is that rape is a valid variety of sex? It’s just, like, a different position, or style? The “historical” question seems obtuse to me. Call it intuition. \*\* Of course, **Surreal** said nothing remotely resembling this. Your statements seem to be due to the fact that either you are deliberately misreading the OP, or else are completely ignorant of the history of attitudes about rape. You really seem to have no idea what the actual question is. \*\* > [@](#): > > Someone who’s been a member here as long as **Surreal** knows how to Google for the information requested in the OP.\*\* Nonsense. Likely search terms would yield a very large number of results that might be quite difficult to search through for relevant information. \*\* > [@](#): > > **Colibri** , your statement linking the origin of this “idea” (cite?) to the rise of feminism suggests belief in another myth; the myth that rape only happens to women. \*\* More nonsense. The idea also applies to homosexual rape, and I have seen it so applied. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/10 "2003-12-17T21:30:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary T \* > \*\*That’s not what I read. Bolding mine: > > "…several posts on these boards…have stated that the motivation for rape has **nothing** to do with sex, that it’s **all** about power, domination, humiliation, or some other non-sexual motivation. \*\* You are correct. I should not have qualified my statement. **Surreal** does give the most extreme formulation of the idea, ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/11 "2003-12-17T21:30:47Z")
From Websters New Weorld Collefe Dictionary fourth edition Rape: the crime of engaging in **sexual** acts, esp. involving penetration of the vagina or anus, usually forcibly, with a person who has not consented. (bolding mine) therefore the OP is reasonable saying that the idea that ‘rape has nothing to do with sex’ is counter-intuitive is absolutely correct from the dictionary deffinition. I believe the phraise that ‘Rape has nothing to do with sex’ is using the term sex to refer to healthy consensual sexual activity, or to refer to reproduction. Not using the term sex in its widest possible meaning. To this end, do we know who was the first to associate Rape with asserting power over or dominating another individual. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/12 "2003-12-17T21:33:08Z")
Well, misreadings aside, can anyone answer the historical question: When did the notion that rape is more/entirely about power, rather than about sex, come into being/wide circulation? My own googlings have been fruitless, discovering only references to the evolutionary biology book “A Natural History of Rape.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/13 "2003-12-17T21:34:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary T \* > \*\*(Sorry, didn’t finish.) > > And this: > “…merely asking about the history of the idea…” > > Doesn’t jibe with this: > “Since this idea seems so counter-intuitive, I would think that someone would need stong supportive evidence before taking this position.” > > That last one seems to have nothing to do with the history of the idea, and everything to do with its merits. \*\* Personally, I would say that the idea that a sexual act has nothing at all to do with sex is in fact counter-intuitive. And that is the idea we are talking about here. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/14 "2003-12-17T21:34:33Z")
I myself could not tell you who said it first. Might have been Susan Brownmiller (_Against Our Will_), but not necessarily. It always struck me (a student of feminist theory) as a slightly odd assertion, insofar as much of what our society conceptualizes as sexy and erotic has a lot to do with power differentials rather than mutuality, with objectification, with doing and being done unto rather than sharing. And feminist theory has tended to point this out, whether you agree with me (and them) or not. Which makes it, as I said, an odd assertion. I’d be more inclined to say that in an antagonistic patriarchal society perhaps _sex_ is not about sex, or, rather, that sex as we see it portrayed and as we are (at least to an extent) trained to conceptualize it, has a lot to do with rape, and vice versa. But I guess the nucleus of the assertion is that rape does not occur simply as a natural consequence of being horny and having the opportunity. It’s an assertion that having a sexual appetite – even a strong one – does not predispose a person to force sex upon those to whom he or she is attracted. It’s a contradiction of the thinking that was commonplace at the time, which was that rape was inevitable, a consequence of horniness, something natural, and therefore something that got winked at a lot. And while men can be and are victims of rape and women can be and are perpetrators of rape, the image of rape was definitely gendered as something men to do women (which is, I assume, true of the majority of rapes). It was the tendency of people to blame women victims for putting themselves at risk rather than men perpetrators for raping that was being attacked by this assertion. ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/15 "2003-12-17T21:55:36Z")
WAG, but might it have something to do with the historical role of rape in war? Might the idea be that old, I mean? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/16 "2003-12-17T21:57:01Z")
[This site](http://www.casac.ca/issues/femanalysis.htm) presents a discussion of the historical development of ideas about rape as an act of domination rather than sex. > [@](#): > > Rape: the All-American Crime (1971) was the first piece of feminist writing to identify the essential components of rape. First, it showed that the construction of femininity makes women fragile and vulnerable, and consequently, less able to defend themselves from attack. Griffin’s analysis then showed that power is constituted by, develops, and is exercised through the interconnection of sexuality, aggression, violence and masculinity. . . **It is clear, according to the author of this important article, that rape must not be understood as a sexual act, but as an act of domination over women.** > > Important contributions to the discussion were subsequently made by Brownmiller (1975) in the United States and Clark and Lewis (1977) in Canada, who elaborated on the various aspects of this crime. Brownmiller’s book is without a doubt the best known of all the radical feminist works. **Confronted with a virtual absence of writing on the subject,** Brownmiller researched for four years to come up with a description of rape, including its existence in law and culture. The study also covers the role of rape in literature, the media and in wartime. Brownmiller demonstrated that this crime is more than an individual act committed by one man against one woman; it is a powerful mechanism of male control over women. **She defined rape as an exercise of power and intimidation through which men maintain women in a state of fear.** Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![boofy\_bloke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@boofy\_bloke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boofy_bloke)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/17 "2003-12-17T22:12:58Z")
The rape/power concept is also related to studies of mammals who use forced, non-procreative sex to confirm the hierarchy (alpha male “rapes” beta male). There is also the suggestion that some rapists can’t actually achieve an erection. And, if you wanted a root, you could go to a prostitute, pick someone up in a bar, etc.; you wouldn’t have to break into an 80-year-old woman’s flat and tie her up to have sex, or put drugs in a guy’s drink, or hold a gun to a chick’s head. These indicators all point toward issues of power, not eroticism. No, I don’t know who to finger for [neologism]concretising[/neologism] the idea, but… [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power\_(sociology)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(sociology)) Nietzsche disseminated ideas on the “will to power”, which he saw as the domination of other humans as much as the exercise of control over one’s environment. and One of the broader modern views of the importance of power in human activity comes from the work of Michel Foucault. Feminist analysis of the patriarchy often concentrates on issues of power: note the “Rape Mantra”: Rape is about power, not sex. Review Essay: A Natural History of Rape: Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion [http://www.uaa.alaska.edu/just/forum/f172su00/b\_rape.html](http://www.uaa.alaska.edu/just/forum/f172su00/b_rape.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/18 "2003-12-17T22:18:03Z")
Now that is getting somewhere **Colibri** thanks for the cite. I wonder if there wouldn’t be more raping of weak males by stronger males if the act was purely one of domination? Maybe there is more of that sort of rape than I am aware of. I have been subject to persons exercising power and intimidation over me through threat and violence, and this was most effective for them without any suggestion of threat of rape. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/19 "2003-12-17T22:23:50Z")
A real-world, practical outcome of this idea came up a few years ago. The idea to castrate male sex offenders was proposed, and several vocal critics of the idea were stating that since rape is not about sex, but about power, that castration would have no effect. Their over-simplified motto was “the problem is not between the legs, but between the ears.” The extreme position, that rape has virtually nothing to do with sex, is way overstated, but it should be clear to everyone that the male libido, combined with some screwed up mental processes, together are responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598/20 "2003-12-17T22:48:28Z")
This article provides a lot of references on the subject: [PERCEIVED MOTIVATION FOR RAPE: GENDER DIFFERENCES IN BELIEFS ABOUT FEMALE AND MALE RAPE](http://www.uiowa.edu/~grpproc/crisp/crisp.6.8.htm%5B/url) > [@](#): > > The scientific and psychological literatures have produced two prominent explanations for rape motivation1. The best known in undoubtedly the 'rape as a sexually motivated act’ explanation. In other words, rape occurs as a result of a conscious or unconscious desire for sexual contact on the part of an often socially inept perpetrator. Thus, as Matoesian (1993) suggests, until the 1980s, rape was most frequently conceptualized in terms of the ‘psychopathological model’ (Matoesian 1993). According to this model, rape is a rare and random act committed by a “small lunatic fringe” of the male population (Scully 1990), abnormal individuals suffering from sexually psychopathic diseases such as uncontrollable sexual impulses. . . > > More recently however, the feminist explanation for rape has gained prominence not only among professionals but also among the general population. This explanation focuses on rape as motivated by power. In particular, feminist scholars gave argued that the psychopathological view of rape reflects a flawed understanding of the motivations for sexual violence, one of the many “myths” surrounding rape (Burt 1980; Lonsway and Fitzgerald 1994). This type of reasoning, according to feminist researchers, leads to increased victim blame and a view of rape that it is inconsequential because it is ‘only sex’. Instead, feminist scholars contend that rape occurs with sufficient regularity and in sufficient numbers across societies to warrant an explanation at the level of cultural structures rather than in terms of individualistic pathology. . . > > While early research found that individuals were more likely to believe that rape was motivated by sex, recent findings suggest that feminist conceptualizations of rape, namely that rape is a crime of violence, “may be becoming more widespread and familiar” (Ward 1995:45). For example, in 1977, a study found that 88% of the university students surveyed agreed with the statement that rape is a sex crime (Barnett and Feild 1977). Likewise, in an examination of counselors, police workers, rapists and ordinary citizens, Feild (1978) found that all of these groups, to some degree, believed that rape was motivated by sexual tendencies. Recently however, research with urban populations revealed attitudes more in line with feminist theorizing. A study by Rich and Sampson (1990) showed that 90% of 18-31 year olds, 89% of 32-46 year olds and 81% of 47-99 year old respondents agreed with the statement that most rapes are a crime of violence rather than a crime with sexual motives. In addition, studies have also found a gender difference in these beliefs, with men generally exhibiting more traditional attitudes than women, believing that rape is more likely to be motivated by sex than by power (Ward 1995). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-belief-that-rape-is-not-about-sex-originate/219598.md?page=2)