# Where did the "black" accent come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2001, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189 "2001-08-20T17:31:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bughunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/41 "2001-08-21T16:49:00Z")
I recall hearing a linguist on NPR talk about AAVE, who used “ask” as the canonical example of how the phonetic rules of African languages influenced the way southern blacks learned to speak English. In their native tongue, the “sk” phoneme did not exist. K never followed S. Therefore, it was natural for them to transpose the sounds and get “aks.” ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/42 "2001-08-21T16:49:46Z")
Nobody axed my opinion, but I think this belongs in GD now. bibliophage moderator, GQ ---
**Author:** ![AuntPam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@AuntPam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntPam)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/43 "2001-08-21T20:13:14Z")
Regarding the pronunciation of “ask.” Anybody who pronounces Worcestershire as “woostrshear” is in no position to suggest that “aks” doesn’t make sense. However, I observe that persons who say “aks” do not reverse the “sk” phoneme in the words “task,” “desk,” or “risk.” Thus, I don’t think you can call this “lazy” English. It has to do with the way you’ve heard a word pronounced all your life. An acquaintance from southern Indiana asked me for a “pin” one day. Startled, I said, “A pin? what do you need a pin for?” “To fill in this form,” she said. She agreed that “pin” and “pen” were not SPELLED the same, after discussion, but insisted that they were PRONOUNCED the same. If I were looking for a promotion, a raise, or a referral in a company managed mostly by upper-middle-class and middle-class Americans (no matter what their skin color), I’d avoid using “aks.” But heck, I can’t even convince the younger female generation that wearing ultra-minis with a halter top is not a good career move (except maybe in Hollywood.) ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/44 "2001-08-21T20:21:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AuntPam \* > An acquaintance from southern Indiana asked me for a “pin” one day. Startled, I said, “A pin? what do you need a pin for?” “To fill in this form,” she said. She agreed that “pin” and “pen” were not SPELLED the same, after discussion, but insisted that they were PRONOUNCED the same. I can’t see any difference in the pronounciation of Dawn and Don, but my co-workers swear they are pronounced differently. Must be my Boston up bringing. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/45 "2001-08-21T20:38:46Z")
I vaguely recall some discussion in a previous thread about the possibility that the aks/ask might have something to do with the past tense of the word. Aksed is a lot easier to pronounce then ask. A while back, I was myself startled to learn that my pronunciation of the word “fire” was apparently shapeded by ethnic language influence. The way I pronounce the “fi” syllable is similar to the “fi” in “fight”, followed by “er”. (It would not rhyme with “hire”, “wire”, “buyer”, or any other word in the English language that I can think of.) I was under the impression that everyone in the Northeast spoke this way, until I mentioned this in some thread, and was met with uniform denials. I asked some guys in my office and they denied it. But I asked some Jewish friends and relatives and they agreed with me. And I realized that we are using the Yiddish word for “fire” instead of the English - that the pronunciation had crept over. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/46 "2001-08-21T23:27:01Z")
**andygirl** and **coffeehood** , thanks for the links. Very interesting. There is a speech pattern or cadence which I thought was regional (again NYC, it’s where I’m from). If my admittedly non-scholarly observation is correct, the I guess it can be called regional now. It’s what I call (yes, I made up the name-- someone correct me if there is already a name for it) the “what am I, chopped liver?” cadence. I thought it was a New York original, but according to William Safire it has it’s roots in Yiddish. It can be heard all over NY now. I’ve even heard it on T.V. – the great accent leveler. “What are you, crazy?” was uttered by a character on Buffy. About the “black American” accent. As **coffehood’s** link stated, there is more than one. However there seems to be something in speech that identifies a speaker as a Black American. What are these unifying distinctions? Or is it that Black Standard and AAVE have become linked in people’s minds because black folks speak this way even though there are no unifying similarities? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/47 "2001-08-22T01:02:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AuntPam \* > **"My boyfriend, he be waitin’ for me after school." That’s not “sloppy English”–it has a definite meaning which can’t be captured easily outside of that dialect/language.** Pray tell, what “meaning” is being “captured” that is not found in “My boyfried is waiting for me after school.”? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/48 "2001-08-22T01:19:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by AuntPam \* > > **"My boyfriend, he be waitin’ for me after school." That’s not “sloppy English”–it has a definite meaning which can’t be captured easily outside of that dialect/language.** > > Pray tell, what “meaning” is being “captured” that is not found in “My boyfried is waiting for me after school.”? \*\* There is a distinction between “he waitin’” and “he be waitin’” in AAVE, one that cannot be made so simply or elegantly in Standard English Vernacular. The “be \” construction indicates that the verb is something habitual or continuous. If the young woman said “He waitin’ for me” (or “He is waiting for me” in SEV), she would mean that her boyfriend is waiting for her _right now_. “He be waitin’ for me” means he always waits for her after school. Similarly, if the same woman were to say “My mama sick”, she would mean that her mother was feeling poorly that particular day. “My mama, she be sick” indicates that her mother is chronically ill. This is one of several cases where AAVE is _more precise_ than SEV. All dialects have their strengths and weaknesses. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/49 "2001-08-22T03:29:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by AuntPam \* > > > **"My boyfriend, he be waitin’ for me after school." That’s not “sloppy English”–it has a definite meaning which can’t be captured easily outside of that dialect/language.** > > > > Pray tell, what “meaning” is being “captured” that is not found in “My boyfried is waiting for me after school.”? \*\* > > There is a distinction between “he waitin’” and “he be waitin’” in AAVE, one that cannot be made so simply or elegantly in Standard English Vernacular. The “be \” construction indicates that the verb is something habitual or continuous. If the young woman said “He waitin’ for me” (or “He is waiting for me” in SEV), she would mean that her boyfriend is waiting for her _right now_. “He be waitin’ for me” means he always waits for her after school. > > Similarly, if the same woman were to say “My mama sick”, she would mean that her mother was feeling poorly that particular day. “My mama, she be sick” indicates that her mother is chronically ill. > > This is one of several cases where AAVE is _more precise_ than SEV. All dialects have their strengths and weaknesses. \*\* Ok, so just say “My boyfriend is waiting for me right now” vs. “My boyfriend always waits for me after school.” What’s so difficult about that? How is the AAVE version “more elegant” than English? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/50 "2001-08-22T04:04:27Z")
It is elegant because it is concise. The very syntax expresses the thought without the addition of adverbial clauses. That doesn’t make Standard English “bad,” but it is a specific feature of language that Standard English does not share. The only reason its elegance needs to be compared to Standard English is to repond to the charge that the construct is “incorrect.” Most times, we can simply let each dialect makes it way on its own. ---
**Author:** ![the\_coffeehood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9dc877/32.png) [@the\_coffeehood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_coffeehood)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/51 "2001-08-22T13:57:49Z")
Thanks for the thanks – it’s good to know that _someone_ is reading what I posted… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **Biggirl** \* > > About the “black American” accent. As **coffehood’s** link stated, there is more than one. However there seems to be something in speech that identifies a speaker as a Black American. What are these unifying distinctions? Or is it that Black Standard and AAVE have become linked in people’s minds because black folks speak this way even though there are no unifying similarities? \*\* To be honest, I don’t really know what those distinctions are – and I studied linguistics in college. There is something very subtle in the speech of almost all African Americans that we seem to be able to hear most (~95%) of the time. The closest thing to it for me are regional accents; I’m originally from southeastern Michigan and now live in Massachusetts, and I usually can tell when I’m talking to someone originally from Michigan or Wisconsin, and can usualy tell if their from the urban, rural or northern parts of those states (both have very similar accent patterns, largely from settlement patterns – mulitethnic in the cities, German, Yankee, and Canadian in the country, and Scandinavian in the north). Back to **Biggirl’s** question: For example, despite the fact that most of us want to believe that we live in a basically colorblind society, more often than not other black people who have only talked to me on the phone know I’m black, and almost all non-black people assume I am white; and I can usually tell (again, ~95% of the time) when a person on the phone is black – whatever their class, regional accent, or For example, when I’m meeting someone (who isn’t African American) at the airport who I haven’t met, they aren’t looking for me unless I tell them I’m black – which I don’t always do – sometimes I just don’t feel like having to mention my race in order for people to be able to recognize me…but I digress – that’s probably another thread for another day. In any event, despite all of the obsessive focus in this thread on the ask/ax issue, the main point to me is that there are all sorts of subtle verbal clues in speech that help identify class, age, ethnic background, gender, education, place of upbringing, etc., and it’s rather difficult and technical to try to exactly define or quantify them. Unless you’re Prof. Henry Higgins who said, _“the moment an Englishman opens his mouth, another Englishman despises him”_ Here are some good links: General site on language, dialects, and accents: [http://speech.essex.ac.uk/speech/teaching/lg474/lg474-98-2.html](http://speech.essex.ac.uk/speech/teaching/lg474/lg474-98-2.html) [http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/routesofenglish/](http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/routesofenglish/) [http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono\_atlas/Atlas\_chapters/Ch11/Ch11.html](http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/Atlas_chapters/Ch11/Ch11.html) Regional accents: [http://204.27.188.70/daily/03-97/03-04-97/b03li071.htm](http://204.27.188.70/daily/03-97/03-04-97/b03li071.htm) [http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US8/REF/dialects.html](http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US8/REF/dialects.html) [http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US8/REF/usregacc.html](http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US8/REF/usregacc.html) [http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US8/REF/cassidy.html](http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US8/REF/cassidy.html) “Ethnic” speech: [http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US1/LP/mk-spang.html](http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US1/LP/mk-spang.html) And for fun try: [http://rinkworks.com/dialect/dialectp.cgi?dialect=cockney&url=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fshowthread.php%3Fthreadid%3D82785](http://rinkworks.com/dialect/dialectp.cgi?dialect=cockney&url=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fshowthread.php%3Fthreadid%3D82785) ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/52 "2001-08-22T15:23:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > [B > Ok, so just say “My boyfriend is waiting for me right now” vs. “My boyfriend always waits for me after school.” What’s so difficult about that? How is the AAVE version “more elegant” than English? \*\* **tomndebb** has already pointed out why AAVE is, in this case, more elegant than SEV. I am responding only to emphasize that term, SEV. Standard English Vernacular, _not_ just English, as you say above. SEV is not “more English” or “better English” than AAVE, they are both equally English. Anyone who claims otherwise is more interested in their own personal prejudices than the study of linguistics. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/53 "2001-08-22T15:37:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > The “be \” construction indicates that the verb is something habitual or continuous. If the young woman said “He waitin’ for me” (or “He is waiting for me” in SEV), she would mean that her boyfriend is waiting for her _right now_. “He be waitin’ for me” means he always waits for her after school. I’m surely no expert, by in my own personal experience, this is not how it has been used. As I’ve encountered it, it is used as “is”. If there is a difference in nuance, I would suggest that it puts more of an emphasis on the actor as opposed to the action. (This would also appear to be the result of saying “my boyfriend, he be” as opposed to “my boyfriend be”) ---
**Author:** ![AuntPam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@AuntPam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntPam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/54 "2001-08-22T16:18:22Z")
Milroyj and Lamia have nicely illustrated the situation that occurs when many SEV speakers hear AAVE. Often the SEV speaker assumes that there’s something “wrong” about the AAVE expression. Actually, there’s no intrinsic reason whatsoever to embed time information in verb forms. Say you have the verb “jump.” In SEV, “I jump, I jumped, I was jumping, I will jump, I would have jumped” are all verb forms which tell us something about the time when the action does, did, will, or would have taken place. But some languages embed NO time clues in verbs. It’s always “I jump, yesterday” “I jump [today, implied]” “I jump, tomorrow” and so forth. The verb doesn’t change at all–the time information goes in separate words. (You could argue that “helper verbs” like “was” or “would have” do the same thing, but they’re not actually names of times like “today,” “tomorrow,” or “yesterday.” And some languages embed different kinds of qualities altogether in verb forms…that’s the “be” particle in AAVE, which embeds the information “one time only” or “ongoing action.” English also embeds some information in verbs about the doer(s) of the actions by changing the verb form: “he jumps” but “we jump.” Admittedly a redundant trick since the choice of pronoun tells us if the doer is single or plural. However, consider “Jackie jumps.” Is Jackie male or female? In English we don’t know. In some languages, there are different verb forms depending on the gender of the doer. So are those languages better or worse than English? The point is that a judgment like “better or worse” is just silly. They’re different. How they’re different is interesting to some of us. Why they’re different is also interesting to some of us. The fact that they’re different is morally neutral and doesn’t reflect on the moral character of the speakers. Are the speakers of a language with more words for sex than English more promiscuous? (Whatever THAT means?) How about more words for food? More gluttonous? How about fewer words to get across the concept of “right now” and “all the time?” More impatient? ---
**Author:** ![bughunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/55 "2001-08-22T19:07:54Z")
I disagree that this thread should have been moved to GD. There may arise debateable issues surrounding the distribution and use of vernacular and dialects, but the origins of AAVE are clear and traceable. Just because people with mere opinions get around to replying before those with facts and cites doesn’t mean the OP doesn’t belong in GQ. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/56 "2001-08-23T00:22:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > > [B > > Ok, so just say “My boyfriend is waiting for me right now” vs. “My boyfriend always waits for me after school.” What’s so difficult about that? How is the AAVE version “more elegant” than English? \*\* > > **tomndebb** has already pointed out why AAVE is, in this case, more elegant than SEV. I am responding only to emphasize that term, SEV. Standard English Vernacular, _not_ just English, as you say above.\*\* I stand corrected. But I have some questions. How is SEV defined? Is it American English, British, Canadian, Austrialian, or all of the above? If you have SEV, doesn’t that imply that other VEs are non-standard? > [@](#): > > SEV is not “more English” or “better English” than AAVE, they are both equally English. Anyone who claims otherwise is more interested in their own personal prejudices than the study of linguistics. Thank you Miss Cleo! ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/57 "2001-08-23T00:25:29Z")
Well, since **coffeehood** keeps coming up with links to keep me entertained for hours, I’d figure I’d return the favor. For anyone else who finds this stuff as fascinating as I do, here’s a site that you may like: [http://hyde.park.uga.edu/](http://hyde.park.uga.edu/) P.S. You gotta let **biblio** test out that new “move thread” button **bughunter**. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/58 "2001-08-23T04:28:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\* > I stand corrected. But I have some questions. How is SEV defined? Is it American English, British, Canadian, Austrialian, or all of the above? > \*\* In this context it is an American dialect. I should think that would be obvious, since we are talking about American dialects here. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If you have SEV, doesn’t that imply that other VEs are non-standard? > \*\* Yes, but you can stop right there if you’re trying to head this into some sort of “so then clearly the non-standard dialects are inferior!” argument. The thing about any nation’s “standard” dialect is that almost everyone in that nation can understand it. That is what makes it standard. This dialect is useful in business and mass communication, and mastery of it is a valuable skill. But it is not better than any other dialect in the sense of being more complex or logical. In these respects _all dialects are equal_. AAEV, like every other dialect spoken anywhere on the planet, has a fully developed and internally consistent set of grammatical rules. It is not a corrupt or degenerate form of SEV. From a linguistic standpoint it is just as valid as SEV, or Cantonese for that matter. No one would argue that speakers of this dialect will not in many situations be at a disadvantage when compared to speakers of SEV, but this is for purely social reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Sagasumono](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Sagasumono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sagasumono)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/59 "2001-08-23T17:18:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > \*\*American blacks (even those who do not speak stereotypically black) do have some distinctive speach patterns no matter where they are from and how long they’ve been there. I’m not sure I’d call it a full out accent, it’s more of a cadence. > > Jewish people too have a distinct cadence to their words, irrespective of where they are from. > > Is there such a thing as a cultural accent? \*\* (in advance I’m coming offf of a “Gin N’ Tonic:Demonic” hangover so please bear with the misspellings) I would agree with you biggirl on it being a cutural accewnt more than naturally “black accent” Because all kow (or mabye we know) omeone who is of another Enthic background who speaks the same way. Case in point. Most people ask me where am from even though I was born and raised in Texas (now lving in Hawaii) Most even think I am “Local” ovr the phone,until they meet me.It’s almost like I have a Japanese/Hawaiian pidgin/Midwestern accent (if you can imangine that) But while working front desk one day,I met a Japanese teenager (enthic Japanese,he was born in North Carolina) who spoke with the “Black” accent,more than I ever did or knew growing up. Funny thing was I spoke more Japanese than him too (He was 2nd generation but didnt really use it) ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/60 "2001-08-23T23:31:27Z")
Ok, then, we have SEV and AAEV. Are there other recognized dialects in the US? What are they called? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189.md?page=4)