# Where did the "black" accent come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2001, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189 "2001-08-20T17:31:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/61 "2001-08-24T00:05:46Z")
Glad you asked, **milroyj**! [A National Map of the Regional Dialects of American English](http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/NationalMap/NationalMap.html) > [@](#): > > The three major dialect regions of the United States identified in Map 1 – the Inland North, the South, and the West – correspond to the three vowel patterns first presented in “The Three Dialects of English” (Labov 1991). They are the major expanding patterns that are actively forming the linguistic landscape of the country., As developed in this paper, the phonological center of these opposing patterns are the Northern Cities Shift in the Inland North, the Southern Shift in the South, and the Low Back Merger in the West. Since that time, a fourth phonological pattern, the Canadian Shift, has been reported in Clark, Elms and Youssef 1995. Discussion of this pattern will be presented when the Canadian interviews are analyzed. > > Map 1 also identifies a number of distinct and important dialect areas in the Eastern United States, which were clearly set out in the work of the Linguistic Atlas (Kurath and McDavid 1961): Eastern New England; New York City; and the Mid-Atlantic coastal area encompassing Philadelphia, > Wilmington and Baltimore. No phonological basis for a division between the Upper South, the Lower South, and the Gulf States is presented here, though a separate dialect area is recognized around Charleston and Savannah. > > The great contribution of Kurath to American dialectology, the identification of the Midland region, is well represented in Map 1, but somewhat transformed. A major part of the South Midland–the Appalachian cities of Kentucky, West Virginia and Tennessee–is here rejoined to the South. The Midland region then includes the major cities of Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Akron, Columbus, Dayton, Indianapolis, Peoria, Evansville, the Quad Cities, St. Louis, Des Moines, Kansas City, Wichita, Lincoln and Omaha. It can be differentiated from the other regions by general phonological criteria, and it is itself divided into a lower and upper half by a characteristic sound change, the fronting of checked /ow/. But in contrast with the Inland North and the South, no single set of sound changes is identified with the Midland region. On the contrary, the various Midland cities show localized patterns, which are shifting and diverging from each other in many ways. The importance of the Midland region in this report rests not upon the description of a single “Midland” phonology, but rather the fact that the northern and southern boundaries of the Midland turn out to be the discrete and influential boundaries that determine the shape of American dialect geography. The North/North Midland line falls almost exactly where it was first placed on the basis of lexical evidence in Kurath 1949, and further developed by Shuy 1962 and Carver 1987 on the basis of additional lexical markers. Although much of this vocabulary is obsolete or evanescent, and the phonological correlates laid out in Kurath and McDavid 1961 have largely disappeared, the North/North Midland line remains as an almost impermeable boundary to the southern expansion of the Northern Cities Shift. > > Much of the controversy surrounding the concept of the Midland conept has rested on evidence for the traditional view that the line between North and South is really the most important division in American English, corresponding to the fact that this is the only distinction that can be reliably identified by the American public (Preston 19??). Bailey 1968 argued that the line running along the Ohio River was more important than the Midland boundaries, on the basis of phonological patterns of syllabification. Carver’s national map of dialect divisions, based on the data of the Dictionary of American Regional English, makes the North/South division pre-eminent, and reduces the North/North Midland line to a secondary division between Upper and Lower North. Our own delineation of the boundary of the South coincides closely with that of Carver 1987 from Maryland to the Mississippi River, as shown in Map 2. From that point on, our boundary diverges, and extends further north and further west, to include Arkansas, Southern Missouri, and the four speakers in Texas we have studied. > > A remarkable finding of Map 1 is that the major phonological boundaries of the U.S. as determined by new and vigorous sound changes which arose in the 20th century coincide with the major lexical boundaries based on vocabulary wjocj was largely set in the early settlement periods. Map 2 shows that > the coincidence of the North/North Midland boundary with that of Carver 1987 is also quite close. The major differences are the northward expansion of the Pittsburgh area in Map 1 to include Erie, and the more precise definition of the eastern and western boundaries of the Inland North. The implications of this coincidence for the general theory of sound change remain to be explored in future publications. > > The West has long been considered to be a residual category, without any clear character of its own. Its mixed and diffuse character has been attributed to the result of settlement routes in which the influence of Northern, Southern and Midland patterns were intermingled. Although the Telsur project finds some evidence to support this view, Map 1 shows that the West is also the center of its own new and developing phonological system. Wheeeeeee! Nothing makes my eyes revolve in my head faster than a nice dense chunk of vernacular linguistics; three paragraphs into something like this and I can’t even order a sandwhich without wondering if I’m fronting my checked /ow/. I regret to say, though, that I’m almost certain that the wonderful word “wjocj” in the fifth paragraph is merely a typo for “which”. (…ba. ba. la. ba. bababababababa. la ba bababalabalaba. babala. lalalabababalabalabababababa…) ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/62 "2001-08-24T02:24:27Z")
Interesting. It seems the professional linguist(s) cited above make their dialectical classifications based on geography, not race. So where does AAVE fit in? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/63 "2001-08-24T03:07:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*Interesting. It seems the professional linguist(s) cited above make their dialectical classifications based on geography, not race. So where does AAVE fit in? \*\* It’s not really about race, it’s about class, something that has always been an important factor when it comes to the way people speak and how their speech is perceived by others. George Bernard Shaw based a play around this idea, you might have heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/64 "2001-08-24T06:55:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > **Re-watching “The Story of English” a year or so ago, I was struck by the assertion that American regional accents were “flattening out” and slowly being replaced by the mostly mid-western “T.V.” accent.** See Bauer and Trudgill’s _Language Myths_ for refutation of the media-as-accent-leveller theme. BTW, _The Story of English_ is **not** considered a reliable or accurate source for linguistic information. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/65 "2001-08-24T17:01:14Z")
It is true that The Story Of English is not a scholarly work (and hey, I’m not a scholar. I’m a hobbyist) and some linguists have disputed some of the conclusions drawn in the PBS special. It is still the most accessible and thorough documentary I’ve ever seen on T.V. on this subject. Some linguist do believe that rural American dialect is slowly disappearing, but that urban accents are growing stronger and more distinct (although it seems that there is some standardizations going on nationwide on select words.) [Here](http://www.virtualvermont.com/happiness/talkin.html) is an article lamenting the slowly dying Vermont accent. An article in [Us News](http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/990125/25acce.htm) on how regional accents are **not** disapearing did have this to say: > [@](#): > > In general, the more transient segment of the population–especially those who have had some higher education–often uses TV-news-anchor English, which sprang from the old speaking style of the Midwest but no longer has a regional identity. > > Labov didn’t focus on rural areas or small towns, where other researchers have found that some accents are fading. You can see some of Labov’s work in mapping American regional dialects here: [http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono\_atlas/home.html](http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/home.html). There is a link on this page to an interview he did on NPR on the New York accent that is fun and interesting. It works on RealPlayer. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/66 "2001-08-24T17:34:25Z")
> [@](#): > > See Bauer and Trudgill’s Language Myths for refutation of the media-as-accent-leveller theme. The notion that accents are alive and well and living in Macon/Akron/Quincy/Lynchburg/Kalamazoo/wherever is a valid point to remember. On the other hand, I can remember numerous tales told by my WWII-era relatives of meeting people (when stationed in remote-to-them parts of the country) with whom they could not originally communicate until they had exchanged enough words to begin to understand each other. The only time that I see that sort of statement these days is in reference to new immigrants or when Mark Serlin claimed he could not understand someone with dark skin. While pronunciation continues to vary by region and class, I suspect that there has still been a certain “levelling.” (Alternatively, is there is a supra-accent that people use when dealing with strangers? When I lived in Belgium, I knew several people whose local Flemish was mutually unintelligible, but who could communicate through the “common” Flemish.) ---
**Author:** ![don\_willard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@don\_willard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_willard)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/67 "2001-08-24T17:45:56Z")
Linguists can draw lines called isobars or something that run between different pronunciations and usages and meanings. So there would be a line somewhere between Chicago and Champaign on the north of which the i and the e sound as in pin and pen are different and on the south of which they are the same. I used to notice that, as I came from Chicago and went to college in Champaign-Urbana at the Yew of Eye. This is likely to be the same line north of which you can say, “I’m going to the zoo, do you want to come with?” but on the south of which the with has to have an object, which would be me in this case. Local Urbanaites and Champagnians would look at me in amazement when I would leave off the object of the preposition in such situations, their mouths dropping open. In linguistics class in graduate school we learned about the bucket-pail line in the country. On one side people say pail and on the other they say bucket. In Chicago we used to say washrag but now people say washcloth, even people who used to say washrag. I think we all still say scrubrag though. We or anyway I still say I’m going to the movies, but two doors down the family always said they were going to the show. (I’ve also known people to use the word cinema without blushing). We had a Drive-In Theatre that everybody called the Outdoor Theater. Also, people talk the way they do because of the people around them. If you want to move in higher circles, you have to talk like them. I mean like they talk. If you just stay among what you think of as your own beloved heritage type people, you’ll never get away from them, and this goes for people with foreign accents too. In the old days, I was told, the immigrants from various points in Europe, tried to talk what English they could around the house and especially when their children were there, instead of using their native tongue. Your native tongue only became your “beloved heritage” when you had too much time on your hands like people do now. Also, I say, “Jeetyet?” like everybody else I know, instead of “Did you eat yet?” I don’t have to worry about moving up to higher circles of the beeswax world and I just dress in monkey-business casual every day and say, “Seeyah,” “Howyadooin?”, and, like Joe Pantoliano in BOUND, I call a girl “Vilet” when her name is Violet. Other than this, I find myself adopting the accents of whomever I’m talking to, whether be Black or Creole or one of the many Swedish Americans I might run across. Remember the episode on SEINFELD where somebody Jerry knows is Jewish insists on his name being pronounced STEEN instead of STEIN? Jerry says, “Yeah, and I’m John Cougar Mellencamp!” ---
**Author:** ![epolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@epolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epolo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2001, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/68 "2001-08-24T18:29:19Z")
I didn’t want to ask before, because it seemed off topic, but now the scope of this discussion seems to have broadened… Has anyone else noticed (or studied) a distinct _military_ accent in the US? I’ve definitely been able to tell on meeting someone that they’re fresh out of the service. But maybe I’m picking up on non-verbal cues, like saluting. ---
**Author:** ![bughunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2001, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/69 "2001-08-25T00:35:16Z")
I have some freinds in the Marines, and I think I know what you’re talking about… And it seems like its more cadence than anything else… and perhaps some useage of military jargon. I don’t know if I’d go so far as to call it an accent. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Bitterdrunk\_Kid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@The\_Bitterdrunk\_Kid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Bitterdrunk_Kid)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2001, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/70 "2001-08-27T20:16:33Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Ferggie \* \*\*I know plenty of white people (both educated and un-) who also go around “axing” people. [QUOTE] Yeah, remember Horschach from Welcome Back, Kotter? ---
**Author:** ![Gundhilde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecc23a/32.png) [@Gundhilde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gundhilde)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2001, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/71 "2001-08-28T00:42:21Z")
Sometimes I think the Peoria area must be right smack on top of the Illinois “pin-pen” line, **don willard**. Seems like everyone pretty much interchanges pin-pen, movie-show, rag-washcloth, with-with me, bucket-pail. My parents were always very bad about interchanging these words, and I am thoroughly confused to this very day. Which leads me to a bit of a hijack: I never figured out how to pronounce the word “envelope.” Is it ehn-vuhlope, or ahn-vuhlope? I usually say “ahn-velope” with hesitation, and subsequently feel this weird, tiny twinge of embarassment. Is this a regional pronunciation about which I’m getting confused? I am constantly confused about how to pronounce things, because I’ve always heard both “northern” and “midland” speech all mixed together. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2001, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/72 "2001-08-28T04:04:25Z")
The accent varies a lot within the dialect, though it’s hard to tell the difference to outsiders. I live in northeast Texas, and one time I was hanging out with some black friends of mine and this other black guy came up and talked to them for a while, and after he left my friends started laughing about how that guy talked, mimicking what he said and saying they could barely understand him. He was from Georgia, and the difference in his accent was very noticeable to my black friends, while I couldn’t really tell a difference in the way they talked. ---
**Author:** ![invisibleOLDlady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e57/32.png) [@invisibleOLDlady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/invisibleOLDlady)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2001, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189/73 "2001-08-30T03:11:51Z")
Why do mature, educated people through a certain section of the upper midwest say melk instead of milk? * * * Damn, my swedish husband (who speaks almost perfect english like only the non-native speakers can) takes a chance every now and then to tease me because I say ‘Melk’ instead of ‘milk.’ I didn’t even know I was doing it. And I didn’t know I was saying axed istead of asked until I was nine. And I’m white. Mostly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-black-accent-come-from/77189.md?page=3)