# Where did the "Goth" look come from? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 20, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268 "2004-06-20T03:50:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/1 "2004-06-20T03:50:22Z")
The other day I was watching Edward Scissorhands for the first time. I wondered, “is this movie to blame for the ‘Gothic’ look?” First of all, the Goths were a barbarian tribe who ran around in animal skins. I don’t see the resemblance between that and pink hair, excessive eyeliner, pierced eyebrows and studded collars. What gives? Second of all, where did the whole look come from anyway? I first started noticing it in the latter part of the 90’s, and by 2002 there was a store in our mall called “Hot Topic” where these people (mostly girls) were buying their clothes. Oh, and lastly, most of these girls are skanky ho’s, but on the right one, this stuff can be kind of appealing. Never asked out a goth girl before though. (I couldn’t be more different in appearance.) ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/2 "2004-06-20T04:14:57Z")
It’s an interesting question. “Goth” BTW refers to dark, “gothic style”, 'It was a dark and stormy night" type stories and characters, not Visigoths. Here’s a bit of self important background [Origins of Modern Gothic Culture](http://blood-dance.net/goth/origins.html) but it doesn’t say much about where the classic “Edward Scissorhands” look comes from. Here’s something with a little guidance on the origins of the goth “look” [An Early History of Goth](http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm) > [@](#): > > The term “Goth” was first applied to music in about 1979. It was applied to the band Joy Division, who were a very important Goth influence, and was later applied to the first wave of Goth bands- Bauhaus, Siouxsie & the Banshees, the Cure, UK Decay. > > Later still, the term “Goths” or “Gothic Punks” was applied to fans of the music, particularly those that had the gothic look. > > What is the “Gothic Look”? > > The early goths looked similar to punks, except that the predominant colours were black for hair & clothing (with the occasional outburst of white, red or purple) and silver for jewellery. Thus they had ripped clothing, and even mohicans, though the “Goth Mohican” was usually black and much wider than the punk version (shaved at the sides only). They also tended to spout a lot of fishnet (more usually on the arms for men) and had a distinctive style of makeup, with very white faces and lots of black eyeliner (for both men and women). Hair was usually dyed black, crimped and backcombed. > > At first the hair was usually fairly short for men, backcombed up, but by the mid-to-late eighties long black hair became fashionable and it’s now more usual to see hair long & down than shaved at the sides & spiked up. Makeup remains an integral part of the look, but clothing has diversified so that some now wear clothes influenced by 18th or early 19th century styles whilst others wear PVC, leather & fishnet. (crushed velvet tends to be another goth favourite). And some of them wear both, though not usually at the same time. Black and white remain the predominant colours, with red or purple still making an appearance. Distinctive fabrics tend to be silk, crushed velvet, leather & PVC ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/3 "2004-06-20T04:19:23Z")
I’ll look for links, but I remember that Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees and a lot of the other early New Wave groups of 1977 and onwards were influenced by old horror films. I didn’t hear the term “goth” until the Nineties, but I think there is a lineage there. ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/4 "2004-06-20T04:27:41Z")
Pics of [Souxsie](http://pobladores.lycos.es/channels/cine/THE_WILD_ONE/area/16) and [Bauhaus](http://web.tiscali.it/darksoul/StuffFiles/Pics/bauhaus/bauhaus%20images2.htm) For what it’s worth, Souxsie was first known as an early regular at Sex Pistols shows, just some kid from the suburbs. ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/5 "2004-06-20T04:45:26Z")
Er, that should be “a regular at early Sex Pistols shows”, as in one of their first fans. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/6 "2004-06-20T04:50:44Z")
Way back in the early 70’s there were a lot of counter-culture types who were into witchcraft and drugs and all sort of dark things, mostly as a rebellion against the “establishment.” The song “devil woman” by cliff richard came out in 1976, so it had kind of hit the mainstream by then. No one called them goths back then, but it was the same sort of thing. Most of those folks wouldn’t have looked out of place on the set of the Addams Family. I wasn’t around much before the 70’s, but I don’t think it was socially acceptable for folks to walk around dressed like something out of a horror movie before then. Or, if it was, it wasn’t publicised much. You don’t generally see people dressed like that in movies and tv shows prior to the early 70’s. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/7 "2004-06-20T05:11:12Z")
There was a thread here not too long ago where someone who was around the English scene at the time recalled them being called “wavers” and didn’t actually hear the term goth used until the '80s. Damn hamsters are clogging the search though. Ah… [Check out Post 12](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=246735&highlight=wavers) Not that that helps your search for the goth look. Keep in mind that if you’re basing your conception of goths around Hot Topic, you’re sample is going to be heavily skewed towards high school kids who are going for shock value (and a lot of that is being slutty). Let me tell you something, there are few things better than hot goth chicks. Especially without the makeup. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/8 "2004-06-20T05:15:39Z")
Yeah I know, those girls aren’t real goths, they’re posers. Believe me, they’re the same as the white kids who buy FUBU. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/9 "2004-06-20T05:19:25Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Yeah I know, those girls aren’t real goths, they’re posers. Believe me, they’re the same as the white kids who buy FUBU. Who are the _real_ goths? What separates a “poser goth” from a “genuine goth”? ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/10 "2004-06-20T06:40:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Who are the real goths? What separates a “poser goth” from a “genuine goth”? The music they listen to. Real goths don’t listen to New Found Glory and AFI. (Somehow middle-school girls confuse ‘pop-punk’ and ‘goth’ with each other.) They listen to shit like Bauhaus. ---
**Author:** ![mrunlucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7993a0/32.png) [@mrunlucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrunlucky)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/11 "2004-06-20T07:17:36Z")
My friends and I considered ourselves “death rock” in the 80s. I didn’t hear the term “goth” for this style until the 90s, though apparently the term was around in the 80s. My impression is that death rock applied more to music and style that was more punk and guitar oriented, and the earliest goth/rock bands, like Joy Division, Bauhaus, Siouxsie. Goth is on the other side, music/style that is more new wave/new romantic/synth oriented. My other impression is that the “goth” term/concept was more widely used in the UK long before the US. But whatever, there are whole books and magazines and websites on the subject/history, from mass market to academic, and I’m sure they all claim contradictory things about the origins. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/12 "2004-06-20T07:30:40Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > The music they listen to. Real goths don’t listen to New Found Glory and AFI. (Somehow middle-school girls confuse ‘pop-punk’ and ‘goth’ with each other.) > > They listen to shit like Bauhaus. [But this guy](http://www.progressiveboink.com/archive/music.htm%22) says “New Found Glory” listeners are [Emo Kids](http://www.dobi.nu/emo/boys.htm). Are [Emo Kids](http://www.dobi.nu/emo/girls.htm) and Goths the same thing now? > [@](#): > > Emo Kids > > Favorite Bands: Good Charlotte, New Found Glory, Simple Plan > Patches posers have on their backpacks: Good Charlotte, New Found Glory, Simple Plan > You can find them: at the mall, their wicked ugly girlfriend’s house > At Hot Topic they buy: temporary tear tattoos, wristbands for each day of the week > Nick’s Notes: Emo Kids are the most harmless of all the breeds, mostly in part for their lack of a physical muscle. The only muscles they exercise on a regular basis are their tear ducts. Seriously, that’s their claim to fame; crying. They couldn’t think up a common trait better than being a pussy. F for effort. ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/13 "2004-06-20T08:02:50Z")
No, New Found Glory and Good Charlotte isn’t “EMO” music to begin with, that guy is wrong. Emo is Bright Eyes (Connor Oberst or Colon Burst or whatever his name is,) a sissy-ass offshot of punk love songs. ---
**Author:** ![mrunlucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7993a0/32.png) [@mrunlucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrunlucky)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/14 "2004-06-20T08:09:44Z")
The thing about emo is that nobody who _plays_ emo admits to being emo. If you’re into emo you’re into indie rock. And if you get all your emo from MTV, then you’re not really emo. Because no self-respecting emo kid is going to call themselves emo. Or listen to a band like Good Charlotte. But I’m just being a culture snob. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/15 "2004-06-20T08:11:23Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > No, New Found Glory and Good Charlotte isn’t “EMO” music to begin with, that guy is wrong. > > Emo is Bright Eyes (Connor Oberst or Colon Burst or whatever his name is,) a sissy-ass offshot of punk love songs. [But everyone](http://www.takeoutmusic.com/articles/new_found_glory.htm) says [they’re “emo-punk”.](http://www.ithaca.edu/students/agobel1/glory.htm) Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_You\_Big\_Red\_Fire\_Engine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/eada6e/32.png) [@Go\_You\_Big\_Red\_Fire\_Engine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_You_Big_Red_Fire_Engine)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/16 "2004-06-20T10:29:52Z")
I am so confused. > [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Real goths don’t listen to New Found Glory and AFI. > [@astro](#): > > But this guy says “New Found Glory” listeners are Emo Kids. Are Emo Kids and Goths the same thing now? And can someone please explain to me what EMO is? 😕 And the real goths don’t tend to be skanky. Or at least that was my impression of them. You can spot the fake ones a mile away, they’re just ‘punk’ here. ---
**Author:** ![Seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/17 "2004-06-20T10:54:08Z")
I can speak a bit on the goth movement that was happening in the northwest USA/BC around 80-85 --which was the height of real goth in Vancouver BC/Seattle/Vancouver/Portland. The goths mostly sprang from the punk movement and many ran in the same circles. Like what **mrunlucky** said, we didn’t call it “goth” we called it “death rock”. There were different version of goth types at the time. There were the punk goth people who listened to bands like Hunting Lodge, Einstürzende Neubauten, Bauhaus -music that was dark but had energy. These kids had dyed blue-black hair, mostly matted tangles of bigness. Their clothes were a mix of punk and what you would expect a goth to wear today -but pretty much just punks in black clothes. Their attitude was mostly get the most out of life because you might, and most likely will, die tomorrow. There were the more mellow goths that listened to bands like Christian Death, Eyeless in Gaza, Jesus and the Mary Chain. They wore plain black clothes, black lipstick, eye liner, white face powder and silver jewelry. Their attitude was mostly let’s talk about death because it is going to get us anyway. Pain and suffering happens everywhere so it should be embraced. Of course, it was only really embraced in their minds. These were the goths you didn’t see very much because they were too busy being happily unhappy in their bedrooms with tinfoiled out windows. Then there were the wave-o goth types that started popping up around 83 after the movie The Hunger came out. These were the “goths” that listened to the Cure, Smiths, and a bunch of other wave bands. Their attitude was mostly if they looked goth, they looked cool and their chance of getting laid improved. You’d see these kids at clubs dancing on MDA or puking in the back seat of their parents car (which they borrowed that night to drive all the other kids to the all ages night club) The now classic goth look is pretty much what came from the last wave of goths. The death rocker goth types couldn’t afford the fancy velvet clothes so they mostly had the leather jacket, black jeans, black t-shirt and big black hair. Of course, the above is IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Oregon\_sunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/50afbb/32.png) [@Oregon\_sunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oregon_sunshine)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/18 "2004-06-20T11:30:27Z")
Oh dear!! I was a Goth in the 80s and didn’t know it!!! ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/19 "2004-06-20T11:47:25Z")
Sorry, folks. I was just in the [I want to know what you look like](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=261528) Thread in MPSIMS and now I can’t stop sharing! [bienville goth](http://www.sexysexyjoelavelle.com/danaphotos/danaglampg2.html) :eek: ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268/20 "2004-06-20T16:12:53Z")
> [@](#): > > …(which they borrowed that night to drive all the other kids to the all ages night club) I went to an all-ages nightclub three times during my junior year of high school, and your description of the whole experience sounds pretty accurate. I’d never seen so many skanky fake -goth and punk- chicks in my whole life. It was like they came there from all over town. I did leave with a few phone numbers though… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-goth-look-come-from/251268.md?page=2)