# Where did the idea of dragons originate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 12, 2002, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-of-dragons-originate/103218 "2002-04-12T13:14:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-of-dragons-originate/103218/21 "2002-04-15T09:38:21Z")
[Here’s](http://www.museum.vic.gov.au/hottopics/article.asp?ID=364) some info about Megalania Prisca, a 20 foot carnivorous lizard that lived in Australia up until about 10,000 years ago. Not quite a ton, but I remember reading about an even bigger lizard that probably died out longer ago. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-of-dragons-originate/103218/22 "2002-04-15T09:40:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flowbark \* > Their provenance is thought to be quite different: they are probably based upon the Chinese alligator, since the snake was also thought to be evil in China. This seems unlikely. The Chinese alligator’s found in the Yangzhe river while the Chinese culture orginated around the Yellow River. IIRC there were already dragons in the very early stages: the Yellow Emperor was said to have returned to the celestial court on the back of a dragon. ---
**Author:** ![Bromley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-of-dragons-originate/103218/23 "2002-04-15T09:41:12Z")
And adding my own personal take: 1. Fire-breathing myths may have had their origin in venomous snakes (especially spitting ones), which was then distorted by the process that **CC** highlights. 2. The flying myth might originate with the way some snakes can cover the distance between you and them when they strike. Having said that, I think the real jumpers might be in Central America, so that might not explain it. BTW, were Western/Middle Eastern dragons particularily evil before Christianity/Judaism had its way with them? Snakes are used on pharmacy signs, which might mean that they were not always seen as bad. ---
**Author:** ![RainbowDragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@RainbowDragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RainbowDragon)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-of-dragons-originate/103218/24 "2002-04-15T14:44:05Z")
In the Sumerian mythology the dragon Tiamat was slain by Marduk, and its body became the earth. The proliferation of Christianity brought upon the belief that the old pagan gods were indeed devils. So it is likely the image of the dragon became the image of the devil. Since its features were rather serpent-like it would be easy to join the connection to the story of Adam and Eve. When the stories of Saint George and the dragon arose in Europe, there was a collection of artists that pictured what the dragon looked like. From my observations of the artworks the dragons are usually green large serpents with wings (although some variance of wing size is noted). Often the belly area is exaggerated as well (prime target for a sword I guess). The Chinese dragon is pictured as a vibrant long golden snake, usually with a decorative head and small feet. No wings but are pictured flying like spirits in the sky. I don’t have the slightest clue where the Chinese representation of the dragon came from. However, there is a story about a certain Emperor who was not of noble blood. In order to legitimize his authority he claimed to be descended from the dragons, and images of dragons became a royal symbol. Hence dragons becoming a more important. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-of-dragons-originate/103218/25 "2002-04-15T15:22:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Badtz Maru \* > \*\*There was a relative of the Komodo Dragon that lived in Australia that got really big, I believe over a ton. It’s extinct now but was still around when humans first came to Australia. I’m sure stories about something that impressive would spread. \*\* Spread around Australia maybe, but not from Australia to anyplace else! ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-of-dragons-originate/103218/26 "2002-04-16T03:27:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\* > > Spread around Australia maybe, but not from Australia to anyplace else! \*\* Why not? The island hoppers who colonized Australia surely maintained contact and trade with people from their former homes for some time, and I read somewhere that this may have continued in a limited form until modern times. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-of-dragons-originate/103218/27 "2002-04-16T03:56:09Z")
I might note that any “large, scary, mythical reptilian creature” might be translated as “dragon”. So although medieval monks and Ancient Sumarians may have both believed in “large, scary, mythical reptilian creatures”, the origins of each may be independent. Chinese Dragon: Daniel Cohen claims that _Alligator sinensis_ had much larger range in ancient times. I wasn’t able to discover whether it extended to the Yellow River, though. FWIW, according to [this site,](http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herpetology/brittoncrocs/csp_asin.htm) “…Chinese alligators have historical associations with the mythical Chinese dragon, yet these have not saved this species from human impact.” Poor Mr. Alligator. ☹ **Badz** : IIRC, (from Jared Diamond), Australian contact with their New Guinean neighbors existed, but tended to be very limited. And remember that you have to transverse a few ecosystems to get from Australia to China. North-South cultural transmission tends to be more limited than East-West transmission, for a given distance. Furthermore, I am skeptical regarding the potential for cultural memory to persist for 6000+ years in a pre-literate society. If I am wrong though, Native Americans should retain a number of tales regarding such extinct North American megafauna such as the Mammoth, the North American Horse and the Shasta ground sloth. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2002, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-of-dragons-originate/103218/28 "2002-04-16T05:40:12Z")
flowbark, IIRC the alligators are a protected species now. Sadly, just because the laws are in place doesn’t mean that they’ll be free from harm. Some bastards were caught killing giant pandas a few years back :mad: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-did-the-idea-of-dragons-originate/103218.md?page=1)